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The Musician Centric Podcast
Two professional violists, Liz O'Hara and Stephanie Knutsen, explore diverse perspectives in the music field through conversations together and with friends. Whether gaining fresh insights from industry innovators or laughing their way through a show like Mozart in the Jungle, Liz and Steph hope to inspire musicians, particularly freelancers, to feel a sense of agency in their lives.
**Note: This podcast was formerly titled the ViolaCentric podcast**
The Musician Centric Podcast
Building A Multi-Dimensional Music Career: with Trombonist Ernest Stuart, Part 2
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** This is the second of two parts of our conversation. If you haven't yet, be sure to listen to the first part!
Pull up a chair and join the intimate discussion with Ernest Stewart, whose vast trombone performing experience transcends genres. Ernest now works with Mid Atlantic Arts, bringing his insights from stage to the boardroom, and shedding light on the significance of artists steering the grant-making wheel. We navigate through the complexities of the music industry, the untold value of mentorship, and the balancing act between growth and vulnerability. Ernest's story, punctuated with humor and warmth, serves as a beacon for any creative soul navigating the ever-evolving path to artistic fulfillment!
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Mentioned in this episode:
MidAtlantic Arts Foundation: https://www.midatlanticarts.org/
Ernest's website: http://erneststuart.com/
Ernest's album, Solitary Walker: listen here
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Episode edited by: Emily MacMahon and Liz O’Hara
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Hey everybody, Welcome back to part two of our episode with Trombonist Ernest Stewart. Just wanted to let you know if you are tuning in for the first time and you may have missed it, this is the second half of a conversation that we had with Ernest. You can find the first half of the conversation on the feed just below or just prior. I don't know how it's listed on your particular listening device, but you get the idea. So we hope you enjoy the second half of this conversation with Ernest Stewart.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Musician-centric podcast. We are two freelance violists living and laughing our way through conversations that explore what it means to be a professional musician in today's world. I'm Steph.
Speaker 1:And I'm Liz, and we're so glad you've joined us.
Speaker 3:Let's dive in Honestly, I think you have to trick yourself sometimes into taking in new information, Even if it's listening to music that you don't like. That's new. I see people kind of get into their bag and I have friends that I went to high school with that drive around listening to the music that was popular when they were in high school and it's like very comforting. You know all the words to the song and it's amazing. You know the music that I listen to. It's amazing that there is now a station dedicated to music from the early 2000s.
Speaker 2:That's classic rock now. Yeah, yeah, it's like oldies now. It's like oldies now. Classical, yeah, the oldies.
Speaker 3:But I think that comfort is what kind of scares the hell out of me, because I'm like it's so comfortable in a lower UN and you have to fight that urge sometimes and just sort of sit in a new area somewhere, or else you start to lose your neuroplasticity and you just get you know, I think it's important to just keep learning and keep putting yourself in these sort of uncomfortable situations and grow in those situations, yeah, or the wrong ones, and listen, you can learn a lot from the wrong situations.
Speaker 2:What I can say you know what that's true.
Speaker 1:In any fast of the life, I can honestly say, putting yourself in the wrong situation often teaches some big lessons.
Speaker 2:Well, there's so much, like you said, ernest, of like there's so much comfort seeking in music, and it's fine. I have days like that, too, where all I want to listen to is stuff that I already know. If you're an artist, though, I think one of your biggest obligation duties in order to keep growing is to put yourself and listen to things that are not comfortable for you, and if they're not comfortable, you'll be like OK, why is this not comfortable? And really like self-examination and letting yourself, just like in regular life, processing feelings. Let yourself process that and sit in the discomfort of it and figure out why is this? Ok, then you might learn something new about what you like, what you don't like, where your growth areas are. The music listening, I think, can be like that too.
Speaker 3:And I don't expect people to listen to anything I'm saying right now about this, but the reality is that I feel like my tastes, like I can use Spotify as a crutch or a tool.
Speaker 2:And I choose to use it as a tool to broaden. That's cool.
Speaker 3:I mean, if you have all the music at your fingertips, like who knows what's out there that you can connect with, that has nothing to do with the stuff you grew up listening to.
Speaker 3:And it could be completely. It could be early blues or early country. That's like folk music that you like an album, that you stumble across or that you hear a snippet of it somewhere and you shit, shazam it and download the album and you're just like this is incredible. I love doing stuff like that, like I do that all the time and, as a result, I get this really wide sort of recommendations from Spotify, where they're not just sending me this one thing, they're sending me stuff from all over the place.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, I can do this myself, is what you're saying.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, it's like if you don't think about it, then you kind of just fall into that thing or listening to music just for, like your next gig and not really listening to other things. I'm really bad at going out to see concerts. You know I'm terrible at that and I need to spend way more time going out to see concerts.
Speaker 2:Did you guys have a recital requirement?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:The pink slips.
Speaker 2:Remember the pink slips? Yes, yeah. You had to get it stamped or punched or whatever.
Speaker 3:Just go to all my friends, or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you don't realize what.
Speaker 1:How meaningful that is yeah.
Speaker 2:How meaningful it is and how you wished like at this stage in my life, I had a recital requirement because, you know, you're required, once a month at least, to go to a concert that you're not performing in, just to broaden your horizons, and it could be anything. Yeah, like it could be, no, 100% you could set this for yourself I'll make cards, cards and we'll distribute them. Recital requirement yeah, it's recital requirement.
Speaker 3:I love challenges like that for yourself, Like forcing yourself to do certain things, to like grow in that way. Oh, it's amazing when you can force yourself into that stuff. It's great. I have to remember that you know, because I spent so much time in these casual listening environments like going to jazz clubs Jam sessions.
Speaker 2:Like every single night.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know you forget that. Oh right, if there's shows that happen at ticketed places and you know you have to sometimes pay a ticket to go in to see a show and there's a ton of artists that you love listening to.
Speaker 3:It's crazy to me that I've never been to a James Blake concert. You know, and I love listening to James Blake, but it's wild that I've, like over the years since I first discovered him, like over 10 years ago I haven't gone to a single James Blake concert. So I'm definitely going to get to a point where I'm trying to rectify these terrible errors of judgment that I've displayed.
Speaker 2:Growth areas.
Speaker 3:Growth areas.
Speaker 1:Growth areas that's right, that's the reframe. That's the reframe. Yeah, located in a historic mansion in Tacoma Park, maryland. You might get the impression that the team at Potter Violins are as formal as the breathtaking building that they work in, but when you go inside instead, you'll find the most relatable, skilled and friendly staff.
Speaker 2:Yes, the people at Potter's are what really make it a special place. I love visiting because I know that whoever I work with is not going to make me feel like I'm crazy or just being picky. They're kind of like your favorite bartender. They're great listeners who give you what you need without judgment.
Speaker 1:Yes, their technicians are not only super talented, creative and resourceful, they take the time to collaborate with you so that the process of getting your instrument at its best really feels like a partnership.
Speaker 2:So if you're in the area, definitely stop by and introduce yourself to Chris, Rob Kimberly, Derek, Jim, Melissa and the whole team, or visit PotterViolinscom to find what you need online.
Speaker 1:It's so fitting, then, that their shop is in this beautiful old house, because the staff at Potter's really makes it feel like home. So I want to ask you this is a little bit of a pivot to the conversation related to Jess but when you came to visit, it was like almost two years ago now and we were talking about this little seed of an idea of a project you had that. I mean, I'm curious to know if you've developed that project idea at all, but also, more importantly, the theme behind the project idea, which was that you wanted to take all this media you'd been learning photography, go into video and your knowledge of music and just start trying to figure out a way to document the lives and the legacies of jazz legends that we're losing over time here. I'm curious to know how that thought maybe has developed for you, or if you want to share with people your thoughts about it to begin with, because I think that that actually is really important.
Speaker 3:Well, during the pandemic we lost a lot of incredible artists older musicians, older jazz musicians that unfortunately, during that time we didn't have many opportunities to celebrate their lives after their lives were lost, and because there was just rules then and we were locked down and we just couldn't. So it becomes someone's duty, I think, to begin to think critically about the field. And what are we seeing out there? It's like man. I used to spend hours on the phone with some of them and they would tell me all of these stories about growing up in Philly and with all of these other incredible jazz musicians and we used to do jam sessions over McCoy Tiner's house or his mom had a hair salon and we used to do jam sessions on the second floor of the salon and all these different things, these incredible stories and they're not just like local jazz lore or history or Philadelphia heritage is like I'm just American heritage.
Speaker 3:It's such a rich heritage and these aren't the people who have gone on to be the Ella Fitzgeralds or the Dizzy Gillespie. Those are a handful of jazz musicians in America. Jazz in America has been propelled forward by all of these local heroes that inspire the next generation of that crop that's tight crop of younger artists who break through to a national level. And these are the people who hold all of the history, all of the knowledge of the music, and it's a shame. You know, when those people pass away, you lose all of it because they haven't been properly documented.
Speaker 3:And one of my ambitions is to find a way to document them not just their stories but their likeness like photographs. How can you do this in a way that makes sense and how can this be something that is fundable? And you know it's funny. I've had a conversation with Wynton Marsalis about this. When I was applying for a position at Jazz at Lincoln Center. I made it all the way through the ranks of interviews until I got to him and he eventually told me that I wasn't going to get the job.
Speaker 1:It was just like no, I get it. I was like that's the deep cut.
Speaker 3:But we actually ended up talking on the phone for a long time about this topic and we shared some thoughts back and forth and I think I'm at the point now where I want to use this position that I'm in at Mid-Atmospheric Arts to find a way possibly to fund initiatives, maybe start reasonably and then grow beyond that, you know, create a new program that maybe we can use our resources to find funding for and hopefully kick off more of this sort of thing where we're capturing these stories, I mean these people who are the architects of this music or who have performed with the architects of this music or grew up with the architects of this music are in their mid to late 80s now.
Speaker 3:And I definitely feel like I have to do it, like this urgency. But I also recognize that you know you could just do it, and once you're already in the flow of doing it, then you can find the other programs and the funding and the things, whatever you need to do. But I also recognize that you also don't have many bites at the apple, so to speak, and oftentimes when you're working with these artists, you've got one chance to kind of get in there and do it and record a conversation. So it's good to go and prepare and not just sort of rush in with you know like all right, I don't know what's going to happen, how can you go and focus? And knowing that I'm going to use this in several different ways, yeah.
Speaker 3:The most difficult part of it is finding a way to make it a living sort of document that isn't just for research or something or that's going to sit in an archive somewhere and that's it. There's a ton of those. There were different initiatives in the past where the jazz greats were documented and interviewed and all of that, but they're just sitting in archives. So what can you do? What can anyone do if they're interested in this, to make this thing digestible and useful to the field?
Speaker 1:And to put fresh air into it so that it feels like something that I don't know.
Speaker 1:The idea that something gets archived right away already seems like it's something that belongs in the past.
Speaker 1:But what I find most amazing about the differences between our disciplines is that and I mean there are, I think, many, many reasons for this that we don't really have time to go into but in the classical music world everyone's documented, everyone's always being lifted up as the. This is the great pedagogue of our time, this is the great soloist, and there's ample information everywhere about people. But also in the world of jazz, it's primarily this living art that happens in a club, in a jam session, that is never replicated again, forever. Like Joshua Bell will go out and play his Mendelssohn and it sure will evolve over time as he gets older and understands more about the music, whatever, but he's going to play the same piece over and over and over and over again for the rest of his life. Because these musicians, if they never get a recording contract and they never get proper recognition for what they're doing, it's just this art that goes away. It's like such a temporary thing and that is a challenge to document, I think, in a way that is accessible.
Speaker 3:Accessible like. The accessibility aspect of it all is what really is important. Why would someone who knows nothing about jazz interact with this thing? And that's really where the hard work has to come in. How can you make this accessible? So, as my tenure at Midaglantic Arts grows, I hope to be able to kick off something there, but I have gone out to record interviews and body equipment just so that I can do it, and start touring with different sort of functional ways of storytelling.
Speaker 3:I think, ultimately, the way you're going to get an audience is through storytelling and finding creative ways you know what's great for that Podcast Podcasting.
Speaker 2:I'm envisioning a series about jazz legends with, like this, american lifestyle production, where you work in the conversations, you play some of their music, you talk to people in their lives, yeah, so that's what I would like to do, yeah.
Speaker 3:More or less hopefully short episodes as a place to start. When I began this process, my goal was to film and either film interviews.
Speaker 3:but then I began looking around at the different sort of ways that people are filming and it's like, man, you could be more narrative, you could take like a more narrative focused approach to this. So then I like came across this one great video about a local drummer here in New York older drummer, and it was so artfully done. And I reached out. I just cold called or cold emailed via director it was for the New Yorker and I found who the director was, and I sent an email to him, you know, just asking a bunch of questions, and I was like, man, can you get on the phone?
Speaker 3:And to my surprise he said yes, and we got on the phone and we just began talking about the art of storytelling and the different ways and the way, much like what you just said, you know. He was like I could see this being a podcast. Why go through the trouble of capturing this on video? The learning curve for podcasting is going to be much lower for you than video work, you know.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, hey, if we can do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true. If we can figure this, out, but anybody can.
Speaker 3:But in that regard, there are a lot of great examples of podcasts and I'm just like man. Why would I want to enter that space that is occupied by great podcasts that have been established? You know, like this podcast. But for me to come from scratch and to say, okay, well, I'm just going to show up with this thing.
Speaker 1:But it's just a platform, it's just like anything else. To me, that's the same as asking, like, why release an album? All these other musicians release albums all the time. Like you have something unique to say and can be found. And I also think it has been a jumping off point for something that then gets expanded based around the themes of that podcast, right? So like the concept of starting there and having the narrative and capturing people's attention in their cars or on the bus ride or whatever, and then growing to that point where you can then turn it into a film style thing where you get to get to see their faces and everything like that's my personal opinion about that, because otherwise we probably would not have started a podcast either.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because by the time you start, you know, even just every once in a while I'll talk to somebody out in the world who doesn't know that I do this. Just the other week I was talking to somebody and they were like, oh, you know, back in the day, like before the pandemic I think, I was listening to a podcast for freelancers and I was like, yeah, there's more than one, it's okay. I mean, even within the limited scope of podcasts for freelance musicians we all speak differently. We all have different perspectives.
Speaker 1:That we're sharing out there, so yeah, it's just adding another human element to the world of podcasts. Right, yeah For sure. Now we've given you your pep talk, now you can go do the thing.
Speaker 2:I'm sure you have a whole lot of time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, actually also. You have a friend who can you know I can help you out yeah. I'm just saying.
Speaker 3:Listen, it's funny that you were talking about that sort of like Kismet thing that happens and like the whole Red Barat thing was all 100% a function of Kismet and like the universe conspiring.
Speaker 2:How did that come about? I have to hear the story.
Speaker 3:So, okay, I guess I'll just leave you with this. I left Temple and part of my plan when I decided to refocus on music at Temple was to just keep going up to New York while I was at school and maybe it'll pay off by the time I graduate. So I just kept going up to New York at the Vanguard and every time I went I would stay, I would hang, I would talk to everyone to the point where they all just knew my name. And right after I graduated from Temple I got a call for my first gig in New York. It was a week-long recording at the Blue Note. It was a live recording for Charles Taliver and it became the album Emperor March. So that was my very first gig in New York, this week-long stint, and I'm just like, wow, I need to move to New York. So I moved to New York.
Speaker 3:I didn't have any money. I somehow threw, you know like I found some Craigslist ads for sublets or whatever and I figured it out and I would kind of run out of money, then go back to Philly or whatever. And the last time I did that I just got off the Chinatown bus back to Philadelphia from New York and I'm walking past the Lowe's Hotel and I see in the window there was a piano player named Anthony Wanzi who had just finished playing a show with Joanna Pascal. So I walk in and I was like, hey man, how are you all? And he asked me what I was up to and I was like I just got back from New York, I'm looking for another apartment now, otherwise I'm going to have to stay in Philly. And he was like you know, a friend of mine was just telling me that she's looking for a roommate. Maybe I can connect you with her, it'll be affordable. And she's a friend. And I was like, cool, connect us.
Speaker 3:And he did. And I ended up moving into that apartment and it was in Brooklyn and Park Slope and you know, it's just like I got that little extra lifeline to keep me in New York a little bit longer. Eventually I kind of burned out because I'm going out every single night Like I'm playing three, four jam sessions a night. I'm just going, you know, and I'm traveling everywhere trying to find jam sessions, trying to find places to sit in, just doing it, and I finally get to the point where I'm like, okay, at the end of this week I'm leaving New York and I'm going to go move back to Philly and figure things out, you surrendered.
Speaker 1:You're like, I surrendered.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just like, just like, I think I'm ready to go back, you know. So my last gig in New York was at this place called the Brooklyn Lyceum, which happened to be around the corner from where I was living. I leave my house to go tours to the show and as I'm leaving my house and walking down the street, I pass this guy on his cell phone and he's like walking towards me and you know, I see him kind of rushing off the phone and he looks like he's about to approach me and I'm like, oh, my God like New York.
Speaker 3:you know, some New York shit is about to happen. And this guy's like yo man, you play trombone. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I play trombone. He was like okay, cool, who do you play with? And you know, we started talking. It's like a typical conversation you might have, like people ask you about what's in your case, all the time.
Speaker 3:So the guy's like yeah, well, you know, I have a band and maybe I can get you to come in and play with us one day. And I'm like again, you hear that a million times. Whatever, we exchanged information and we just like go our separate ways. I go to my gig and I end up leaving New York. Like a year later I get this Facebook message and it's that guy and he's like yo man, you remember me?
Speaker 3:We ran into each other on the street. Listen, I have a couple of dates that I could use a trombone player for. If you want to do them, let me know. And if it works out, you know I have a couple more. And I go to Brooklyn to play these shows and all of a sudden I'm in this cat's band. You know it was Red Barat, but the wild thing about it is that that day that I was walking down the street with my trombone, he was on the phone with his trombone player who was telling him that he just got a tour and he's not going to be able to make any more dates with the band. So he's getting this cook and up the street, walking directly towards him, is a trombone player.
Speaker 2:I didn't know the story either. This is so good.
Speaker 3:It's a trombone player and that's why, when he sees me coming, he like hangs up the phone and he's like. He's like yo, you play trombone.
Speaker 2:He was lucky too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that began like I traveled the world with those guys, like I traveled the world with them, and it's just what if I left my apartment like three minutes later? I would have missed them, you know, or or I would have walked on the other side of the street or like any other. Any of these things is just one of these like very special, magical New York things that can happen.
Speaker 2:Totally Secret of city.
Speaker 3:And yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean like I mean everything just hinge on that one weird moment and interaction, and I'm all the better for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's amazing to me, I think I honestly I just think like life flows like that. Yeah, yeah, for sure I think it happens so much more than we even realize on a daily basis. We don't notice it most of the time, but every once in a while you have these, these moments where you're like okay, I mean that's unexplainable.
Speaker 2:That's unexplainable, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:That's a crazy thing. Amazing. That's such a great story.
Speaker 3:I'm glad we stayed on that and on that, ladies and gentlemen, this has been such a great conversation.
Speaker 1:This has been amazing, my friend.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for joining us. I'm so glad. It's great to meet you, yeah.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for listening today. If you loved this episode, consider writing us a five star review on Apple podcasts, amazon music, spotify or wherever you listen.
Speaker 2:Thanks also to our season sponsor, Potter Violence.
Speaker 1:If you'd like to support the podcast and get access to bonus content, consider joining our Patreon community.
Speaker 2:You can buy all your Musician-centric merch, including shirts, water bottles, koozies and a variety of other fun items.
Speaker 1:Our theme music was written and produced by JP Wogerman and is performed by Stefan myself.
Speaker 2:Our episodes are produced by Liz O'Hara and edited by Emily McMahon.
Speaker 1:Thanks again for listening. Let's talk soon.
