The Musician Centric Podcast
Two professional violists, Liz O'Hara and Stephanie Knutsen, explore diverse perspectives in the music field through conversations together and with friends. Whether gaining fresh insights from industry innovators or laughing their way through a show like Mozart in the Jungle, Liz and Steph hope to inspire musicians, particularly freelancers, to feel a sense of agency in their lives.
**Note: This podcast was formerly titled the ViolaCentric podcast**
The Musician Centric Podcast
When Improv Sparks Joy: with Cellist Mike Block
Stories? Questions? Thoughts? TEXT us here!
Start the year with a jolt of creative permission! We sit down with Grammy-winning cellist Mike Block to trace the real path from conservatory discipline to cross-cultural collaboration. Mike opens up about the moment improvisation unlocked joy, how Silk Road Ensemble and Mark O’Connor reframed his identity, and why adding genres isn’t about collecting tricks—it’s about finding communities, languages, and listeners who expand what your instrument can do.
We dig into the rapid rise of multi-genre string playing at conservatories and beyond, and what that means for technique, career design, and confidence. Mike shares how his string camp turns stand-bound readers into agile collaborators by removing sheet music, mixing levels, and setting real performance stakes. We explore early music education with fresh eyes: Suzuki’s strengths, where ear-first creativity can fit, and why a global repertoire helps kids hear themselves in the music sooner. The line that sticks: classical training doesn’t monopolize technique; it just organized it first.
You’ll also get a behind-the-scenes look at Mike’s Shark Tank appearance with Forte 3D—why he chose Bach for investors, what it takes to argue for access on national TV, and how affordable, durable instruments can open doors for students everywhere.
If you’re a string player, educator, or curious listener who’s felt the pull beyond one lane, this conversation gives you the frameworks, stories, and practical breadcrumbs to move forward.
Subscribe, share with a friend who needs the nudge, and leave a 5-star review to help more musicians find their voice with us!
Mentioned in the episode:
Forte3D instruments: https://forte3d.com/
Guided Practice Sessions: https://www.guidedpracticesessions.com/
Mike's Summer Improv Camp: https://www.mikeblockstringcamp.com/
Head over to musiciancentric.com to subscribe to our email list!
Interested in starting your own podcast? We can't recommend our host Buzzsprout enough! Click here for an introductory offer from them!
Welcome to the Musician Center Podcast. We are two curious duelists finding inspiration through conversations that explore what it means to be a professional musician in today's world. I'm Steph, and I'm Liz, and we're so glad you joined us.
SPEAKER_02:Let's jump in the deep end.
SPEAKER_01:Happy New Year!
SPEAKER_02:Happy New Year. Oh my god. 2026. It's 2026. Another year. It's literally January 1st when we're recording this, everybody. So we're starting the year. We're literally saying happy new year to you together back in the podcast room.
SPEAKER_03:Feels good. Yeah, it feels good to be back having these conversations again. And we know we've been away for a while, but we're going to try and put out an episode here and there as inspiration strikes us and our schedules allow. Yeah. But we've really been missing it. We really have.
SPEAKER_02:We're trying to figure out how to make it work. And I think this is uh gonna be a really exciting couple of things episodes that we have to put out for everybody.
SPEAKER_03:Yep. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:And the first one is with a really incredible musician, Mike Block, who is a um Grammy Award-winning cellist. This conversation was so amazing. Um so many different things to to explore with him and and his perspectives. It was just like action-packed conversation for an hour, wasn't it? Stuff.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it really felt like we talked about a lot of stuff. And it never felt like we were lacking for any kind of conversation or there were hardly any silences. It was just he's so interesting. He has so many thoughts. Um he has had a really uh unique journey to where he's at right now, you know, following the traditional classical um path for a little while, but then figuring out what it was that he really wanted to do. Um and I think that we can all aspire to find that type of authenticity. But I think you're really going to enjoy him talking about that. And maybe many people will identify with that journey.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. And I I think one of the things that struck me that I thought was so interesting was that it was um, he talks about how it took him a long time, you know, in his life to realize that this was the path he wanted to be on. And that part really struck me very personally as well, as I'm sure it does many professional musicians. But I love the fact that so much of our conversation was sort of centered around like broadening our horizons. And he talked about that in the realm of music education and in cross-cultural passion that he has through his experience with Silk Road Ensemble. He shared some pretty cool yo-yo ma memories. And um, that was pretty awesome. But, you know, now he's gone off and created all these opportunities for musicians to experience music from around the world, uh, music from different styles, some of these incredible faculty members at the various uh camps and things that he does over the summer. He's just so passionate about that, which I think is really special and so needed for string players who are looking to expand their experience beyond what they might already know.
SPEAKER_03:Yep. Yep. Yes, and just how one of his big passions is music education and making sure that people have the exposure and the opportunity to have these experiences much younger in their musical careers and musical lives. And um, I think we could all benefit from a little bit more diversity in that way. So it was exciting to look at the future through his eyes.
SPEAKER_02:Yep, yeah, totally. And then of course we got into a really, really fun discussion around his uh appearance on Shark Tank, which we had a lot, we like opened up a can of worms with that conversation, just in terms of like selling what we do as musicians to a greater public. And um, and that was really, really cool. I I I just there was just so many facets of this conversation that were really fun, and you guys are gonna enjoy it a lot.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. So enjoy this conversation with the fabulous cellist and educator, Mike Block.
SPEAKER_02:Mike Block is a multi-style cello player, composer, singer, and educator with a passion for cross-cultural collaborations. In addition to solo performances, Mike's touring bands include Biriba Union, Mike Block Trio, and since 2005, Mike has been a member of the Silk Road Ensemble founded by Yo-Yo Ma, with which he earned a 2017 Grammy Award. As an innovator, among other projects, Mike is the musical instrument consultant for Forte 3D, the world's first 3D printed carbon fiber cello, and now violins, recently seen on Shark Tank. As an educator, Mike is dedicated to creating transformative experiences and is the founder director of the Mike Blockstring Camp, Silk Roads Global Musician Workshop, and create the creative music retreat at Frank Lloyd Wright's famous Falling Water. He also teaches over 400 cello students online through his Multi-Style Cello School at artistworks.com and is on faculty at the New England Conservatory. Hailed by Gramophone as one of the bravest, most intriguing musicians on the American fusion scene. Mike, welcome to the Musician-centric podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Hello. That was exhausting just to listen to it. Um I know those things that you just listed in that bio, but to hear them all at once is I I need a nap.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and that was trimmed down.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, luckily, not all of those things happen every single day.
SPEAKER_02:Only maybe three of them at once.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, in the mornings, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So um I think what we wanted to start out talking about was the idea of the multi-genre artist, particularly how it pertains to being a string player, um, what that means to you. And I've been really interested lately in this idea that, you know, for violin in in particular, but I think this crosses into all string players aside from bassists, fiddle playing not being the standard what you picture as fiddle playing, that there are many iterations of what that looks like. Um, but particularly, you know, your your career has been really interesting because you've explored music from literally all over the world. Um, and I know that you compose and and you've been such a really innovative artist in so many ways. Um, but you must have started out as a classical cellist, uh, maybe exclusively. And so what might have what might have let you know that you could when when did you feel like you could branch out and what does it mean for for string players to be quote unquote multi-genre?
SPEAKER_00:I appreciate that despite everything I've attempted in my life, you knew I still must have started with classical music. There's no escaping it.
SPEAKER_02:I assume we all but it's true.
SPEAKER_00:Uh I mean, when I was a child in the previous millennium, that was the only way to learn the cello was through classical music. I don't think that might be the case still. But yeah, I mean, my whole family is classical musicians. My my dad is an orchestra conductor, my mom played French horn, and both my siblings are classical string players. Um, so that was the path that I was on, and that seemed normal as a child. And you know, I was getting lessons and in Eusyfree, and then going to college to study classical cello felt like the obvious path. Um, but honestly, it was during college where I started realizing that I just uh I wasn't happy or I wasn't feeling the things I thought I was gonna feel, um focusing on a life in music. And I was at the Cleveland Institute of Music, which was just such a high-level disciplined environment, and I really wanted to be working hard, and I really wanted to be, you know, the best that I could, but I wasn't convinced I was working on the things that were gonna help me feel the way I wanted with music. So um I, you know, I was kind of contemplating maybe I've chosen the wrong instrument, maybe I shouldn't be doing this. And it was really when I started experimenting with improvisation and composition that that I did find those feelings that I was hoping to have had that whole time. And and so um, you know, it took me a long time to find myself with music, but um it was really kind of yeah, I ended up going to graduate school for cello because that was what I was supposed to do. Um, and it was while I was at Juilliard in New York City, I I really started like, you know, joining rock bands and and lugging amps to the Lower East Side, you know, before string quartet coachings and and just beginning my double life of exploring. And I think um, for whatever, you know, everybody's so different, and for whatever reason, kind of the the freedom and spontaneity and flexibility that I was looking for, I was only finding outside of classical music. Um, and so that uh was a feeling I was I was searching for, and and pretty soon I was getting professional opportunities way beyond my abilities because of all of the non-classical stuff I was doing. So I had met uh the Silk Road Ensemble, which was founded by Yo-Yo Ma. I was able to be a student in a workshop they put on in 2004, and then by the next summer, I had been asked to go to Japan on tour with them. And so I was, you know, I was in between my years of graduate school, sitting next to Yoyo Ma on tour, appreciating two things. One is that I am not ready for this, and two, I would only be here because, you know, I was improvising and composing and doing all the things that no teacher actually ever asked me to do. Um, so that was it was very encouraging. I was like, oh, I should keep doing all that stuff. Um, and then, you know, as you're talking about fiddling, the next big opportunity for me is as I was graduating, I really didn't know what to do. I knew I had a long list of things I didn't want to do, uh, like audition for an orchestra. Um, but I didn't have a lot of clarity for what I wanted to pursue. But I I got an incredible opportunity. Um, Mark O'Connor was looking for a new cellist for his Appalachian Waltz trio. And uh, you know, a month before graduation, I auditioned for him, and then suddenly I was on tour with him that summer and going to his fiddle camps and just appreciating what you're saying of like, oh, this is a whole world with like you know, every style, every language, there's all these nuances and differences that I'm only beginning to even be able to hear, let alone manifest. And and so that was so inspiring to me to to understand, oh, you know, Irish music and Celtic music are different, and here's why, and then here's why I should care. Uh, and just you know, like really appreciating that each style of music is like a whole community that you can begin to feel connected to. And so ever since I graduated, you know, that's been kind of my professional path is is using, you know, this yearning to kind of connect with musicians of different backgrounds as this motivator to learn new styles. And and then it's always like this uh balance for me of like trying to learn a language of music so I can work with those musicians and serve those audiences, and then balancing that with like compositional work in my own creative process and kind of funneling all that to figure out more about my voice and and what do these new tools allow me to say that maybe I couldn't say before. Um, so that's it's kind of like this parallel journey of learning about the world, but simultaneously learning more about myself and and what what are the things that I gravitate to or or or don't, you know, really.
SPEAKER_03:That's interesting. I I want to bring it back. You said something really kind of earlier on where you were talking about how the classical path that you were on didn't really give you the feelings that you were looking for. And is there ever do you ever kind of regret staying on that path and not being inter more introspective about what do I need to do to get those feelings that I need for myself?
SPEAKER_00:I was not prepared to share any sincere emotions or feelings on this project.
SPEAKER_02:Sorry, friend. It can get a little woo-woo in this room, Mike, just to warn you.
SPEAKER_03:I'm just super interested because I there are probably other people who are in, you know, where you were.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I think it's a it's a very good question. I think um when people ask, you know, when students are asking me what path to follow, I I I find myself quick to say, don't do what I did, because it took me too long to figure it out. Um now it's this, it's a funny thing. Like, because I did go so far within the classical community and was working hard on the things I was being asked to do. Like when I came out the other end, like I felt like I needed to like leave classical music and and establish a new identity in a whole other community. And unfortunately, what I learned is you can't actually escape anybody. Uh, and you will just keep seeing the same people no matter what you do. Small world, yeah. It's this very small world. And so ultimately I started to appreciate that within the non-classical environments, within the fiddle world or the jazz world or the global world, that you know, maybe I did actually have something unique to offer because I had gone so far with this classical training. And had I abandoned it earlier and found what I wanted earlier, you know, I'd I I would be a different musician. And so I don't you know what that alternate path would have looked like, but I do think the advice that I give is is if you do know what you like, there's no glory in waiting um to pursue it. Like whatever you whatever you know you like, you should pursue it today. Um and there's no glory in getting good at something that you don't like doing. That being said, if you don't know what you want to do, then the exploratory path is great.
SPEAKER_03:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:Um but um I I I do envy people who seem to have figured out their superpowers earlier in life and just can pursue them directly. And it just took me a long time.
SPEAKER_02:This resonates so much with me too. I feel like I'm remembering we did it, I had a guest in our very first season, which was the pandemic, um, a friend of ours, Molly Sharp, who she was the principal violist of the Richmond Symphony down here and um great friend. And she said she's she's also very creative and has these pursuits outside of music, and talked about how a lot of times as a classical musician, she felt like we were artisans as opposed to artists, and that you know, there's a lot of like there's a lot of learning the craft and doing that craft to the best of your ability, but it doesn't necessarily give you the freedom of creative expression. And I just understand what you're saying so well because uh it took me forever to recognize that um the way I feel in an orchestra setting versus the way I feel in my quartet and now versus the way I feel with no music in front of me, those are very different experiences. And chamber music feels like the gateway because you have that ability to be your own voice within a team and you're you're essentially a band. The music is written for you, but there's a lot of room for interpretation and you get to express your voice. In orchestra, a lot of times. Sometimes you feel really inspired by what you're doing. But in orchestra, a lot of times you are just following someone else's vision of what they want the music to sound like. And I think that that for me, it was again. I mean, we were talking about sort of the theme of our podcast before we started recording. It's that sense of like agency over what is my musical voice, you know, and and it doesn't always feel that way when you're kind of like confined to one specific practice. And I think there's a world where classical music coexists beautifully with other styles of music that you want to play, right? I feel like you're a great example of that because you know, you'll break out a box cello suite on a on a Shark Tank episode with no problem.
SPEAKER_00:There's yeah, you know, it's for better or for worse, it's a deep, deep, deep part of me. Yeah. And it's, you know, spent formative years, you know, obsessing over that music. So it's it is fun. And I would I would also say that I enjoy playing classical music more now that it's not the only thing that I do. Um, and so that that is just, you know, just like everything I was saying, like I different parts of me can come out in a folk group or a jazz group or in in my African band. Like, there's also parts of me that come out with Bach that I don't have access to in those other contexts. So I I do appreciate the music so much, but yeah, you're kind of articulating the the life of a working musician doesn't always feel as inspiring as you know, the biographies of these great composers that we're reading about and studying and you know, manifesting their visions. I I guess I was just driven by jealousy, you know. Like here I am in school, you know, understanding all the reasons I should idolize Bach and Beethoven, but why isn't anybody asking me to do what they did? You know, I wanted to do what they did, not just play what they made. Um, and so that was always it felt like a disconnect for me to like admire these composers, but not try and do what they did.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think that everybody has to figure out their what what lights them up. Yeah, you know, like for you, it was putting something out there that was yours, that was complete, completely your own, that existed up here and now exists in the world. And for other people, I think the artistic pursuit can be found in what is my interpretation of this thing that Bach wrote. You know, so I just it it's like you said, it's a it's a path to kind of figuring out what that thing is for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And and you know, uh appreciating that my very angsty strong opinions on what was wrong with everybody and everything was so incredibly personal and subjective. Like, oh, it's like, oh, I'm not right, I'm just different. And that was a that was a preen realization.
SPEAKER_03:I'm reminded of the saying I heard somebody say that when you're in your early 20s, that's when that's an age of when you're loud and you're wrong.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I remember that phase. Mine might have gone a little longer. But yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, but I th I find it so much easier to figure out what I don't want than it is to figure out what I want. You know, I'm motivated by what I don't want. And I think but I think that's the first step to figuring out what you want is recognizing that you're in something that you don't want and what does that look like? But it you gotta narrow it down. Yes. But I will say, I know for sure, Stephanie's probably heard it a lot from me. Like there's a lot of projection about what I don't want and it turning into like a judgment about something when really that's not the intention. The intention is just yeah, I think that's a venture. You're different, right? Yeah. Um how has the scene how has the scene evolved for a quote unquote multi-genre string player since you started out? You kind of mentioned you kind of alluded to the fact that you were early in the days where not many people were doing what you were doing, right? So um are there a lot more musicians doing it?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, it is at uh dare I say, at our age, it is amazing to see like the generational shift uh in real time. And I and I remember feeling so um isolated, you know, in classical school of of having these instincts and and trying to find people to collaborate with was very hard outside of classical music. There was a couple people though that made a big difference to have somebody who I could jam with in college, but I also struggled to find role models, like in the early days of the internet, you know, like while I was in school, like just scrambling to find any example of a cellist who sang. Uh and and you know, I found this like my my earliest inspiration was this amazing cellist Hank Roberts, who who comes from the the jazz side of things, but also had an album where he sang. And I was like, oh my gosh, it's it's a thing. Okay, now I I I can see that.
SPEAKER_03:Now you have permission to do it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and so I and there was people before me doing amazing things. Of course, you know, Daryl Anger is a generation before me, and in even just a few years older than me, but you know, a decade or more ahead of me, uh, like Casey Dreesson, Rashad Eggleston, and there's like a whole progressive scene that I was just late to the game to join. But at the same time, you know, there might be a dozen people or a handful of people that you might be able to look to from certain eras. And all this to say, like now I have students who are doing amazing things, and and just the there's like you know, fiddle club at Juilliard, and there's all sorts of cool people playing pop music on string instruments is almost like a rite of passage for a college student, it seems, now at a conservatory, and that just wasn't happening 20 years ago. So it's actually kind of awesome to see how quickly things can change in a in a way. And even the people, you know, I'm at an age where all of the people I was in school with are now teaching at universities, and even if they aren't necessarily like, you know, going on this creative path themselves, like everybody's open to it and appreciates why it has value. So I feel like I was still coming into a generation where there is the expectation of resistance, and and I don't think that exists for the kids these days. So I think it's great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Well, Liz and I were both super inspired by your appearance on Shark Tank, and we both w rewatched the segment last night. Um, but there was something that struck me. So if you haven't watched it, listener, you should go and check it out because you get to see these 3D printed cellos and violins now that that we're talking about. But I was struck by you going into that room and having to convince a bunch of non-musicians about the value of what we do and how it needs to be more accessible to people. And it just it just struck me.
SPEAKER_02:And I was like, so Yeah, the shock over the price tag of an of a regular internet that they don't know.
SPEAKER_03:It's this huge yeah, it's this huge like um economic and financial scene that you're walking into, and yet you have to come in there and be like, this is why it's important. This is why people need to have it. What was that like?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, uh yeah, I mean, the the experience felt oddly similar um to teaching for me, um, in that I'm just talking about cellos and music for a bunch of people that don't know anything about cellos and music. Like, I can do that, you know, just uh they are famous and millionaires, billionaires, whatever, but like my role in that environment was to say what our experiences as musicians actually is. And I was also surprised that they didn't realize they seemed to be skeptical that there was a market for string instruments at all. And and you know, we were with the sharks for 45 minutes, and you know, we only they only aired like nine of those minutes. But I think at one point I I found myself explaining like almost every high school in the country has a room with 10 cellos in it, you know, yes, and like that's that's a lot. Like, you know, there's this is a whole community, and obviously, music education programs is a whole nother conversation, but like like obviously there's you know, throughout the world, there's so many musicians, and yeah, that was our whole pitch was that buying fancy expensive instruments is a barrier, and this is a way to remove that um as much as possible and still have an instrument that's inspiring to play. Um, and uh yeah, I mean, that experience I felt very clearly uh as we were preparing that this was not just our company trying to get a deal and get some support, but that we are suddenly in this opportunity to represent the whole community. Um, and so like I was really aware of that this is uh uh it's not every day that classical string players are on primetime TV getting nine minutes to talk about themselves. Um, it's not like we're in the background of some cocktail scene in a movie. It's like we are the main character for these nine minutes, and what is what what would I want to see somebody else talking about in in that environment? So it was definitely a unique opportunity, and it was not something I actually wanted originally to go down that path because it all started with like an open casting call that our CEO went to in Philadelphia, and it just you know, we kept I wasn't even part of the open casting call. Alfred was just like, hey, I'm gonna do this thing. And I was like, Great, good luck. And I didn't think anything would come of it, but somehow we magically kept getting past, you know, round by round. And then before I know it, I'm like dropping my daughter off at my mom's house in Denver while my wife is on tour so that I can fly to LA for 26 hours and film. Like it just all snowballed out of momentum, and and and then yeah, then we got to talk about cellos on TV.
SPEAKER_03:Well, also I thought was interesting was that uh knowing you and your multi-genre background, you chose to play Bach instead of playing something improvised and arguably more accessible to the sharks and you are like my inner monologue uh manifesting.
SPEAKER_00:She does that sometimes. This is the this is the question. I mean, um so you know, Forte 3D, first 3D printed carbon fiber instruments, like I think they're great. I've played every concert on it for two years. But as everything we've talked about so far, I am not normal, and I am not exactly the typical representation of a classical musician and what they're looking for. Um, and so it did become clear early on that I should not use my cello strap, the block strap, to perform standing up. I was wondering about that. I've performed every concert standing up for 15 years or whatever. And it's because, like, oh, that's gonna be a distraction. You know, if they have to have like three minutes of conversation about why I'm standing instead of the instrument that we're there to talk about, that's not gonna help.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and our whole premise is that this can serve the needs of existing musicians. Uh, and so I'm trying to pretend to be a normal musician, um, so that I'm reducing the the amount of questions and barriers they have to see these instruments as like viable cellos and violin. So yeah, I thought I'd I mean, I had like what 17 seconds to play music. Um box seemed like the the the most authentic thing to be able to play. Everyone's heard it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I know why you did it, but I was kind of wondering in that like the couple seconds when you sat down, I was like, what's he gonna do? I was supposed to do this, or is he gonna do this?
SPEAKER_00:Well, now I'm having all these regrets.
SPEAKER_03:But no, no, I'm not. I mean, obviously it worked out. I mean, spoiler alert, you guys got a deal.
SPEAKER_00:So but but again, like the goal is like, well, what's gonna serve that moment and what can I bring that's gonna help you? Totally understand. Yeah, and so I think you made the right choice.
SPEAKER_02:You made Mr. Wonderful tear up, you know. I mean, they they shouldn't have to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, they were like closing their eyes and listening. But I think put that on your resume.
SPEAKER_02:It's so funny because I used to watch that show like weekly for a while, and I think it was because, especially during the pandemic. I think it was because um I've always felt, I've always considered myself to be very entrepreneurial. And I think, you know, like that's one of the things Steph and I talk about on here a lot too, is that is that entrepreneurial spirit that many people possess um that doesn't necessarily feel that way when you first experience it. It's more like you're just full of ideas and thinking, oh, I wonder if I could do something with that. Oh, I wonder if I could do something with that, right? Um, I think of that as entrepreneurial. And so I'd watch Dark Tank and I think to myself, like, man, I wonder if there's ever a scenario where there's like something in our field that's on Dark Tank.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And sure enough, there you are. Like, it's so true. You have this platform. And I, I mean, I would venture a guess that just being on it, even if you didn't get a deal, probably boosted sales. Like I can't I can't imagine it would be.
SPEAKER_00:I would imagine, yeah. I mean, the visibility is is huge. It's it's very unique. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's just very cool and um it just speaks to the uniqueness of the product, which is so interesting to think about because you know, we've seen carbon fiber instruments. I've seen these played in real life. I've stood on a stage with one because Ed used it last time.
SPEAKER_00:Nice and right, you were at Mike Block String Camp where I've I've built my arsenal of Forte 3Ds for uh all of our traveling cellists at camp to just rent an instrument locally, and it's perfect because then you know they they they can survive even cellists like Ed. Um year after year we'll have these instruments for people to use at camp.
SPEAKER_02:That's so great. Yeah, I feel like um I, you know, you don't know what to expect, but when you get up there and play it, you're like, oh, it sounds really nice, resonant, it's a good instrument, you know, and it makes so much sense to have something that you can transport. I was thinking about everything you said. It's just very cool. So, you know, pivoting into this role of yours as an educator, speaking of Mike Box Dream Camp, um, I'm gonna just tell like the shortest personal anecdote about my experience coming there.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_02:So about two years ago is when I really started to kind of get the bug I think you had many years ago, which is I feel like I want to do different things. I want to do more, I want to improvise, I want to be able to play outside the box. And um and so I was looking online for various, you know, workshops or online lessons I could take, you know, something that I could do. And just like the universe pointing me in the right direction, Christopher Tate, who is a former student of mine and another jazz cellist, um well, we could call him multi-genre too, couldn't we? Posted a story about how he was going to be doing some electives at this Mike Block string camp. And I messaged him and I said, Does this camp have professionals at it? And he said, Yeah, absolutely, you should come. And then I think I emailed you personally and was like, I'm not just like, I actually am a professional. Should I come? And you're like, Yes, you should come. And sure enough, I show up, I have no idea what I'm doing, I'm completely in over my head. They take all the sheet music away from you. There's no such thing unless you're Ed and you go home at two o'clock in the morning and transcribe things from the day.
SPEAKER_00:Oh no. Thank you for outing him. I didn't know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you blow up. Love you, Ed. Right here on the podcast. Poor Ed. Yeah, he'll get over it. Um You seem to have a lot of sympathy for Ed.
SPEAKER_02:I know, I don't know why I'm being so hard on him. We really have a great, great collaborative partnership, which we discovered at Mike Block String Camp. Um but I just I can't even explain what it felt like to come into that environment and know that I was, you know, I mean, you have students of all ages at this camp, but you offer other workshops too, which you're I would love for you to talk about the different offerings you have for people to come and learn from you throughout the summer. Um, but I just felt like a whole world was opened up to me because we were exposed to all these different styles of music. And really, the there's a lot, there's a huge learning curve because by the end of the week, we have to perform on a stage with no music in front of us. And for some of us, that's a big step. It's a big deal. And um, but it's been absolutely miraculous. I'm gonna come back for my third year this summer and can't wait. I'm doing my best to recruit people to come as well because it's so it's just so valuable. And I think every step I've taken, even in my you know, chamber music performance and my in my other playing, it's made me a better player, you know, just being able to get out of my out of the box, you know. So um yeah, I I mean, I it must be important for you to be able to share this knowledge and this experience and the experience of your colleagues.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, my you know, coming from classical music, I had my life changed multiple times through the like a a week here and a week there, and and and having those feelings that I didn't know I could have, or building a skill and a comfort that I had never had before. So I know how that feels and how like empowering that can be, like to to power you through the the whole year of practicing just to get back to camp and and level up yet again. And so, yeah, for for me, the the Mike Blockstrain Camp in Vero Beach, Florida is in its 17th year this summer. It's amazing. Um, I never thought it would, you know, go that long. Uh, and so it's like here we are, and it's just been this really satisfying playground for me to basically have, you know, because when you put your name on something, you can do whatever you want. And so, like, I've just gotten to try out so many things educationally. You know, people you can try out creative things musically, but to like experiment educationally at camp has been very cool. And like, well, what would happen if if we did this or if we had this kind of focus? And and ultimately, yeah, the the goal is that you become more of yourself by the end of camp, and that you that's a you know feeling that you can take with you. And uh yeah, I mean, it's also been kind of this excuse for me, um, particularly in the early years, of like instead of like wishing that all my favorite string players might think of hiring me, it gave me something to hire them for and basically pay them to be in the same place where I was gonna be and get you know, that was such a huge learning experience and like still a big inspiration um to just like surround myself with some of my favorite musicians that I want to keep learning from. And that's always kind of like been the mindset, which is like, you know, these I know it'll be good for participants if if I'm interested in what all of these people have to say. And um, and so yeah, the camp, you know, from the beginning has always been all levels, and and so these days it's over over half the camp is is over the age of 18. Um, so it's like our college classes and our professional classes are our largest groups. Uh, and then we do have an amateur adult class in all sorts of kids' classes, and then this summer, so uh Hanukkah, my wife, she's uh on faculty, she's a Scottish fiddler. We have a six-year-old daughter, and we are now creating a new program around our daughter called NBSC Junior, uh, which is for five to ten-year-olds. Uh, and it's like a nine to noon half day experience that we can get now, even the younger ages involved in the in the experience. So that's that's the first year it's gonna happen is is this year. So even now, like that's an that's another experiment, which is like uh here we are running you know a child camp that could have five-year-olds in it. Uh, and it's been this journey with camp, as you know, you you mentioned Chris Tate, who's been a longtime participant, uh incredible young musician. And uh, you know, he's one of the many people that have been a part of the camp community that we then started inviting as assistant faculty. Uh, and so this is a way that we're kind of like creating this generational component where it's actually assistant faculty that will be teaching in the MBSC junior program.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, great.
SPEAKER_00:And so it's like there's all these great musicians that we're basically trying to figure out how we can keep them from leaving and like keep the community strong. And basically for young musicians, that means finding ways to put them to work. Uh and so that's an exciting thing to be able to to to to be thinking about like, well, this person is great. How can I how can we keep them in this community and and do something that that benefits them and us, you know?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's so cool. Because my next question was going to be about the education of kids who are starting, right? Because going back to what you said in the very beginning, you started classically because that was the only way to start.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:What if there was another way to start? Like in this genre of music, can you still get the same? Obviously, you can get the same ear training technique, you know, music reading, if that's what you need to do, music theory.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And can you build all those skills in this other vein?
SPEAKER_00:I think there's any number of incredible teachers in different styles that, you know, I think particularly in the fiddle world, there are plenty of young musicians that are beginning with bluegrass or beginning with Celtic styles, and and classical is is the thing that they come to later instead of the other way around. Um, so that does happen. I don't know of As many teachers and students that are starting jazz at the age of six and seven.
SPEAKER_03:You do need some kind of foundation there, right? A little bit.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, the big answer to your question is I don't think that classical music has a monopoly on technical help. A lot of times people say, oh, I should study classical music so that I have technique. And A, well, that's actually a kind of a disappointing reduction of all the greatness of classical music that it can serve only to get us to move our fingers faster.
SPEAKER_03:Like that's actually doesn't think that's the only redeeming quality of classical music.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's what I'm saying. Like classical music is so much more than just learning how to play your instrument. But I also think like in every style, there's different techniques to learn. So all this to say, you know, every every style of training is helpful. What classical music has in its advantage is they've got um like a 400-year head start on the organization of their pedagogy.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:So that's helpful. It's very organized. But I would confess that my daughter, who has played violin for just over a year, I was very intentional about getting her with a Suzuki teacher because I think that's an incredible method and philosophy for young kids specifically. And um, you know, the repertoire may not be as multicultural as one might hope, or there might not be improvisation. And I'm starting to figure out how I can insert myself into that universe.
SPEAKER_03:Um I love that, yes.
SPEAKER_00:But but I I do appreciate the incredible intention and organization that a great Suzuki teacher brings to a kid. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:For sure. I think it's probably also just the lack of, you know, all the teachers that are out there were trained in a certain way, a classical way. That's what they know. So that's what they teach. So it's more about like the teacher being exposed to different alternatives of ways to teach kids. Um, as opposed to, yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, sorry. I was just gonna say there there are quite a few music educators in my chess class in at Mike Block's drink camp who are taking these ideas to their students. And I think that's one of the most beautiful things I've seen, you know, like um good friend who Stephanie has yet to meet, but my good friend Iri, who I made friends with at Mike Block my first year, and now we're like thick as thieves. Um, she started her own music program down in Key West, and she went to Mike Block to try to find different ideas for how she teaches and what she can include. And it's been really cool to see how inspiring it is for her students to like practice the things that we do at that camp. And um, and I think it it's a really interesting point that we've talked about before actually, with um in in the past on the podcast, how there's a lot of I think there's been a lot of progress in terms of programming and what, you know, what the classical music library or repertoire looks like because there's been a lot of intention behind trying to make it more inclusive. And that's very cool for like the professional orchestra or you know, like my string quartet, we we always play music by living composers. It's something we absolutely love to do, and we see a great deal of uh value to doing that. Um, but educationally, it's it's still really the same technique books. You know, it's like, all right, we start with this book, we go into this one, we go on, you know, Wolfheart or Mazas or whatever, whatever it looks like as an upper strings teacher. Um, and what would be very cool, so maybe this is your next project, is to figure out while your daughter's learning Suzuki, how do you add how do you add in these other elements?
SPEAKER_00:I just had a meeting with my assistant yesterday because this was my big pandemic project that I never finished. Was I've already got the repertoire planned for like three books of a global Suzuki supplement. And I was just questioning to myself whether this is still a good idea. Hundred percent yesterday. Hundred percent.
SPEAKER_03:Here you are activating your sign from the universe.
SPEAKER_00:Oh man, now I have to do it. It's gonna be so much work though.
SPEAKER_03:That's you're not that's not a new concept to you, it strikes me.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I agree that it's just a matter of exposure, and and I think teaching is always best when the teacher is teaching something that they love. Uh, and if everybody loves something different, then I think our bases are gonna get covered just fine. Um but but that's where the generational shift, I think, is gonna like I don't, you know, for better or for worse, this conversation will seem incredibly uninteresting and inapplicable to a musician growing up 20 years from now. You're right. Because they'll that's fine, all of their teachers will be all of all of you. It'll be you and and Iri and everybody who was appreciating you know the value of of showing them early. And yeah, I think um at one point in my angster years, I was confused why music education was so specific and why getting a degree in music seemed to imply classical music because if you get a math degree or if you go to a math class, they will never spend 10 years on math from Europe from 1600 to 2000. And that is the math that we have, and that's what we're gonna study. Like it just in no other subject would it make sense to be as focused um when you know, when we're talking about music as a large umbrella, you know, there's a whole world out there. So, you know, classical music is awesome, and and like I want to like have great classical musicians teaching and performing out there. Um, but I do think what's great about our instruments is that they are so versatile. The violin in particular is already native to so many styles. So um I think I think we overestimate the amount of life planning that uh a seven-year-old is is understanding when they choose the violin or they choose the cello. I don't think they really understand the implication implications of of what box that's gonna put them in for the next 20 years. And I don't think I did, even though I grew up in a musical family. So I think our role as teachers is to show options to our students and and and I think all you know all of this multi-style conversation is is just it's about that, you know, is is showing the world of options to us to a student so that they can find what works for them.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I love that so much. It's I when you think about it, think about the instruments that are introduced to you in school when you get to choose what you're gonna learn. Like I I learned in my public school strings program first. Um I think Steph is the same, right? Yeah. Yeah. And um the only instruments that really go in one direction are string instruments, right? Like all the band instruments, they can be exposed to a jazz band when they're in middle school and high school. They can be exposed to all these different styles, but they're but we are we really do have this concept pretty quickly ingrained in our minds that like the path you're on is is this path because it is the most historied. It's it's so funny to think about in that context of the many, many hundreds of years that the discipline has been around and what it's developed over those years, but that we hearken back to it so much. And um and giving people the the opportunity to see these whole other worlds is just uh it's yeah, I I hope that in 10 years doing the Lord's work, our conversation doesn't mean anything. I hope in 10 years it doesn't mean a w a thing. You know, it's like somebody listened to it and go, oh man, could you imagine that's what it was like? You only got to play this once.
SPEAKER_00:Wait, wait, Mike Block didn't learn how to chop until he was 23 years old? What was he doing? I mean, that's nothing is more humbling than graduating from a graduate degree in music, going to a fiddle camp and being intimidated by a 12-year-old. I had that experience. Um, and and to be, you know, to understand how much early exposure can help. Um and to realize what, you know, what's possible is is very exciting, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my goodness. I mean, I think I think about it, you know, I'm uh I'm 20 years into a career. And there's this summer I had a moment where I was like just overwhelmed with this feeling of God, you know, I know that I know a lot. I know so much. I have so much experience, but there's so much I don't know. There's so much I don't know how to do. There's so much, you know, it's it's like a whole other world to explore. It's really great, it's inspiring and um scary sometimes, but it's it's really, really cool. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean the the the danger is is kind of what you're articulating, though, is feeling like, oh, there's 10 now. Now there's 10 things I should be able to do that I can't. And and you know what we don't want to fall into is this trap that I was articulating earlier. It's like, oh, well, I'm supposed to get good at this stuff now, and so now my list is just longer and I can just feel that much worse about myself. Like, yeah. Um that's fair. Yeah, you know, we we still want to be like passion driven, and and these are tools available, but like, yeah, I'm sure, you know, 10 years from now, people will be like, you know, I was, you know, trying to figure out the difference between Baroque and romantic and contemporary approaches to my cello playing, and now, you know, our students are gonna be obsessing over bluegrass versus jazz versus Bach versus Rachmaninoff. And that's too much. It's too much.
unknown:You know.
SPEAKER_02:It is, it is too much. Well, it and and maybe what um maybe the best way to put it is, you know, you gotta work on taking the perfectionist tendencies out and say, I'm just gonna try to learn, I'm just gonna be influenced by these things. I'm gonna work on them, and whatever comes out of that comes out of that, you know. And and for what it's worth, I couldn't I couldn't do a single chop two years ago. And now I can actually chop rhythms.
SPEAKER_00:Nice.
SPEAKER_02:I can maintain a steady beat. That's pretty impressive. Okay, let's hear it. Let's hear it. Where's your view? Put you on the spot. They're put away. They're but they're hiding.
SPEAKER_01:Oh.
SPEAKER_02:I'll put it on my Instagram at some point.
SPEAKER_03:Well, should we play our game? Yeah. So, Mike, we didn't play a game. We tell you we have a game. Really quick. Yes. It's not hard. You're gonna be great at it. Okay. Okay, I'm gonna you're gonna win.
SPEAKER_02:It's like uh rapid fire questions.
SPEAKER_00:Immediately scared and worried.
SPEAKER_02:Oh no. Re we'll call it relatively rapid fire questions.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so this game is called sight reading, okay, but it's not as scary as the uh the real thing. Yeah, are you ready for this? And we have a bunch of questions that we've numbered out and randomly we'll select one. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:All right, here we go.
SPEAKER_03:Or two.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know if people can see this, but they're spinning a wheel of fortune type wheel.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Okay, it's number six, Steph.
SPEAKER_03:What do we got? Okay. Oh, we're really getting our feels here. Okay. What are you holding on to that's holding you back?
SPEAKER_00:Whoa. Ah. This is hopefully somebody. Hopefully somebody else could tell me this. Um you know what's funny is I had the same question. Uh I asked Yo-Yo Ma that question for my for my own benefit. Uh, there was a time when his, because he's no longer the artistic director of Silk Road Ensemble, and we kind of knew, you know, that he was going to be leaving the group. And so there was like some final tours where he was actually being very intentional about getting time with everybody in the ensemble. And there was one plane flight where I got to sit by him for a couple hours, and you know, this was my chance to chat. And and I remember asking him this exact question, which is what what am I what what's one of the things that maybe got to me to where I am, but is holding me back from getting to the next level? And uh this since this is a safe space, I will tell you the answer he gave me. Uh, and he said that I needed to trust people more. And I think like my healthy skepticism of all things in life had helped me, you know, find new ways of doing things and and not take you know things for granted just the way they were presented to me. And but I think he appreciated that maybe I was asking too many questions, and maybe I should just uh like give it, you know, just giving life and giving people the benefit of the doubt. So that's one of those, like he's not a very um explicit leader. Like, you know, he he's not offering unsolicited feedback or or telling people what to do, kind of at all. He's only on a handful of times ever like giving me what I would call advice. But because it happens so rarely, I think about it you know, incessantly afterwards. And so that's been that's been sitting with me for for many years now and thinking about in every situation, like how can I be extending trust? And I think obviously there's personal elements of that, but also musical. Like, you know, I play in a lot of cross-cultural product uh projects where things are different every time, and I don't always know what's happening. And I've you know learned to lean into that uncertainty more artistically as well as like in life, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Very cool. That's so good. Okay, next question. Oh, 21. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I love that every every outcome of the wheel is a winner, by the way.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, you always win here. This is a millennial generation thing, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Have you ever had a loved one send you a sign from beyond?
SPEAKER_00:Ooh, no.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, do you believe in that kind of thing?
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, okay, interesting.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, now now we have to unpack you. Okay, tell me more.
SPEAKER_03:No, what if you um get to the other side and you realize, oh my gosh, I can communicate somehow in this consciousness with people in the real world.
SPEAKER_00:What form would I choose?
SPEAKER_03:Well, what would you communicate to? And who would you communicate to?
SPEAKER_00:Oh man. I don't know yet. Um, I'll have to see how bad things get, or maybe I'll have to know what happened right before I went to the other side to inform this decision. Who's to blame? Exactly. But this is I will think about this for the next few months. That's a deep question.
SPEAKER_02:We can do a follow-up in in July.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Next question. I like this one.
SPEAKER_03:Let's make this the last one. This is the last one. One more. Okay, let's see what this one is.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, one another winner.
SPEAKER_03:This is a great one. So this is really a great one for you. When is the last time you lost yourself in performance?
SPEAKER_00:Wow. Let me see. Now I now I feel like I want to look at my calendar to see what were my last performances.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Does it happen? Does it happen every time? Yeah. It probably happens a lot, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know what it is, is um, I think kind of what I was saying, like when I'm working with musicians where I don't actually know what's going to happen, I think that can be particularly exciting. Um, so yeah, I mean, uh, my last performance of the year, just like a week ago, I played a duo with a chora player from Mali, uh, Yakuba Sissico is his name. And uh we played a show, you know, kind of like he brought half the repertoire and I brought half the repertoire. And um that instrument provides such an intimate kind of uh intimate, like calm conversational space that um yeah, there was a couple moments in that performance, you know, just like improvising or it's it's so like um open, like every section is open, and the arrangement might be different every time. And and and those those kinds of interactions help me from my classical background, this built-in instinct to organize and have structure and know exactly how I'm gonna be performing. And then, you know, like for me, uh, when that's not an option anymore, um, particularly with like you know, improvisational musicians from like it's particularly my my West African and Indian collaborators, I experience this the most with, where their concept of structure has nothing to do with my concept of structure. Uh and so what I'm left with is the only choice I have is to be in the moment. And that is the only path to success, is to respond to what's happening in front of me. And that really helps me kind of get out of my head and transcend and find the feeling you're talking about.
SPEAKER_03:I love that. It's so good. What a perfect ending.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, thank you so much, Mike, for your time. Oh my gosh, this has been such a great conversation.
SPEAKER_00:Appreciate you guys.
SPEAKER_02:Truly awesome. Is there anything coming up that you want to share that? Oh, sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, apart from everything we've talked about, um, I'm gonna be relaunching something right around when this podcast comes out in January. During the pandemic, my you know, my pandemic online thing was I I created this program, this series called Guided Practice Sessions. And this was like not just me, but a lot of my favorite string musicians were leading weekly Zoom live guided practice sessions specifically on how do we practice improv, how do we practice chopping, how do we it wasn't like the workshop on chopping, it was the practicing you do after the workshop. Cool. Uh, and so we did that for three years during the pandemic. And basically, you know, the online fad faded and I stopped sending energy into it, but people reached out regularly enough that it became clear that we needed to organize it and reopen the whole archive. Uh, and so we've been I've been working on that this fall. So in January, people will be able to subscribe and access three years of these uh guided practice sessions and kind of do it at their own pace. There's downloads and links, and yeah, guided practice sessions.com should be open and ready uh when people check out this this podcast. Put it in the notes.
SPEAKER_02:Look at you grabbing that handle. That was smart.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I you know, nobody's gotten this far in the interview anyway, right?
SPEAKER_02:So we could say anything at this point. It's true, it's true, unfiltered at this point. No, yeah. Thank you. Seriously, Mike, thank you for your time and your energy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, nice to meet you, Steph. So fun. Nice to meet you.
SPEAKER_02:So good to talk about. Talk with you. Thank you so much for listening today. If you loved this episode, please consider writing us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Spotify, or wherever you might listen.
SPEAKER_03:And if you'd like to support the podcast, consider joining our Patreon community.
SPEAKER_02:You can also buy Musician Centric merch like shirts, mugs, and tumblers. Simply visit our website at musiciancentric.com to browse.
SPEAKER_03:Our theme music was written and produced by JP Wogaman and is performed by Liz and myself. Our episodes are edited and produced by us, Blizzard Steph. Thanks again for listening. Let's talk soon!
