Music For All, By All with Sandy Choi

Liz and Steph talk with Arts Advocate and performer Sandy Choi. Sandy works with the DC Youth Orchestra Program (DCYOP) as the Community Engagement and Digital Media Manager and is also known for her involvement in the chamber music scene in DC, working with trailblazing groups such as Inscape Chamber Orchestra, Urban Arias and the Balance Campaign. Sandy talks about the role of the youth orchestra in the community and how DCYOP makes participation as inclusive as possible. The friends talk about how creating new music for students could shape the evolution of classical music among other thought-provoking topics. Unpopular opinions and all, you’ll love listening in on this conversation with someone who’s in the trenches!

Mentioned in this episode:

Inscape: https://www.inscape.org/

Balance Campaign: https://balancecampaign.com/

Urban Arias: https://www.urbanarias.org/

DCYOP: https://www.dcyop.org/

NOI K-12 New Music Project: https://theclarice.umd.edu/noi/partnerships/k12-new-music-project

Find Sandy on Social:

Instagram: @sandychoimusic

Head over to musiciancentric.com to subscribe to our email list!

Chapters

• 0:00 Turkey on Thankgiving
• 5:05 Therapy changes you
• 15:31 Sandy Choi!

Transcript

[00:00:00] Steph: You know what I have discovered though, when I have made turkey in the past, I've always tried to do it like a different way than my mom made it when I was growing up. And so one year. 

[00:00:08] Liz: Is there a reason for that? Just because?

[00:00:10] Steph: I think that I like know better, you know how it is. You're like, I know better than my parents did. There are all these new ways to more efficiently cook a turkey, so you're not cooking it at like, six o'clock in the morning and standing over it all day. And so one year I dis, was going to say dismembered, but I'm certain there's like a less murdery way to talk about it. 

[00:00:32] Liz: I liked the murdery way.

[00:00:34] Steph: I dismembered the turkey and then roasted it all in a pan, which was fine, but they all cook at different times and then some pieces were dry and then it got cold quicker. 

[00:00:44] Liz: Um, 

[00:00:45] Steph: And then another time, what else did I do? Oh just roasted it, like straight up in the oven. And that also turned out Okay. But my mom would just, she put it in one of those bags. You know what I'm 

[00:00:55] Liz: Oh The bags yes.

[00:00:58] Steph: And I remember it being delicious, lots of juices. 

[00:01:02] Liz: If it ain't broke,

[00:01:04] Steph: So if I'm ever in a position where I have to cook a turkey again, then I think I'm going to go old school. 

[00:01:09] Liz: Gonna do the bag. Do they still have the bags,

[00:01:11] Steph: Yeah. Mom, you were right. I know you'll never hear this. So I'll say it loud and proud. 

After Intro

[00:01:18] Liz: How was your Thanksgiving? 

[00:01:43] Steph: It was good. It was hectic. It was crazy because it was all, you know, family again, which was great. We all took our rapid COVID tests, so everyone was negative and they all came over here. But I did not make a turkey. I did not make a ham because I find that stressful and I don't enjoy it. There. I said it. Unpopular opinion. I don't love turkey on Thanksgiving. it's my least favorite part of the meal. So if you out there are like me, then please give me some validation on that. But. 

[00:02:16] Liz: I want to know about this. Okay. So what did you make instead? What was your protein? 

[00:02:20] Steph: Well, I didn't make it, my mother-in-law ordered a turkey already cooked and a ham, 

[00:02:27] Liz: um,

[00:02:28] Steph: and she brought that over. So all we had to do is carve it up. 

[00:02:31] Liz: Awesome. so you enjoy eating it. You just don't want tomake it.

[00:02:35] Steph: No, I don't even enjoy eating it that much. I will eat it, because in order for me to justify having all these yummy sides, I should eat some...

[00:02:43] Liz: have some protein. 

[00:02:45] Steph: ...before hand. They fill up my stomach and then if it was called sides, giving, I would be completely okay with that. Besides giving every year, all day. 

[00:02:57] Liz: Yeah, that's a great point. It's not turkeys giving either. 

[00:03:01] Steph: No. Why did we even eat turkey? Because we think that they didn't even, eat that at the first Thanksgiving, no matter what controversial record of things you believe there was no turkey. 

[00:03:11] Liz: Even if there was a turkey, it certainly wouldn't be the kind of turkey we're eating today. Like all fattened up and. 

[00:03:17] Steph: No, it was probably like a yard bird. 

[00:03:19] Liz: Yes. I see a lot of wild turkeys up at Matt's parents' house and they don't look anything like the turkeys we 

[00:03:25] Steph: Did you lasso one for your Thanksgiving? 

[00:03:28] Liz: did. I didn't do any lassoing. 

[00:03:31] Steph: That's disappointing. 

[00:03:32] Liz: it is disappointing, there's a, another family that lives down the way from them. They have horses. Uh, the last day, this was the most amazing thing I just were driving by. And these horses were like playing. They were like prancing and playing it was the cutest thing I've ever seen. Normally, you know, you see horses in a field and they're just like standing there eating grass. And these horses were like having a great time. wish I'd gotten a better video cause I would have shared it. It was amazing. 

[00:03:56] Steph: I love that!

[00:03:58] Liz: I thought about, you know, Wranglers.

[00:04:01] Steph: The jeans or the people? 

[00:04:05] Liz: Well, the people who probably are wearing the jeans while they're doing the wrangling,

Therapy changes you

[00:04:12] Liz: I feel like I'm definitely a little more guarded with my time. I think, or maybe it's the energy output to other people or both. but I, I find it really difficult. Like over Thanksgiving weekend, Thanksgiving was amazing. It was just lovely to be able to take a break and we stayed with my in-laws, who I've talked about this before they live at the foot of the mountain. And so it's just like this like haven. So for, two and a half days or whatever, I just was very quiet and peaceful.

There was a lot of visiting because it's our hometown. So we have wonderful friends who are in town, visiting their families and people who still live there. And so we definitely did some visiting with our friends. we had hung out a little bit with people on Thursday night.

And then on Friday we spent the whole day just kind of relaxing practically in silence at Matt's mom's house. And then we had plans to meet up with people and it was like a double event. So like we went somewhere to meet with some friends and then we left and we went somewhere else to go hang out with other friends. And when we were leaving the house on Friday, I was like, I like, feel anxiety about doing this. I want to just stay. I don't want to go talk to people. It's hard. 

[00:05:24] Steph: Yeah. 

[00:05:25] Liz: COVID changed me.

[00:05:26] Steph: Yeah. Totally. Or just made you aware of, desires that you have had underneath the surface of being social. 

[00:05:36] Liz: Yeah. 

[00:05:36] Steph: Needs that you have that are just kind of glossed over before. 

[00:05:41] Liz: I think there's some truth to that. 

[00:05:42] Steph: Yeah. 

[00:05:43] Liz: Especially, I think it is the energy exchange. That's really tiring. 

[00:05:48] Steph: It'll be interesting to see how that changes for you. If it'll come back, you know, like exercising a muscle. 

[00:05:53] Liz: Yeah. don't know because sometimes I think I just, didn't even consider the possibility that it was draining for me. And I found ways to like, keep myself amped up for those kinds of days, social lubricant, if you will. I don't know. I don't know. We'll see. I mean, I'm still, obviously generally speaking one of the most social ones in the room, but 

[00:06:15] Steph: I can see that. 

[00:06:17] Liz: Not much has changed maybe just internally, I'm learning the ways of the introvert.

[00:06:24] Steph: That's what it is. I'm like bleeding off. What's a nice way to say that. Rubbing off on you. I'm not bleeding on you. That would be traumatic. 

[00:06:34] Liz: Thank you for that. I feel like, yeah, we said this yesterday in our practice group, we're a yin and yang here, and you've said a couple of times how surprised you are that you actually liked talking to people.

[00:06:48] Steph: Well, you know, it's really interesting. I can say this because I don't think anybody in my family listens to this podcast, but growing up in my house, there was not sharing of feelings there. Wasn't oh, tell me how you're feeling about what just happened to you. You know, if you made me mad. Tell me how you're feeling about that, why there was never an exploration of deeper feelings.

And so for the longest time, this is like through college, through the very beginning of my marriage, I did not share very much at all because I didn't think, that anybody wanted to hear what I had to say. It's really sad when I say that out loud, but that's honestly the feeling I was like, why would anyone care what my idea or my impressions are of the situation?

I would just keep it to myself because that's what we did. And I didn't realize until I started going to therapy because things in my marriage were not going well that, it was important. That I voiced these feelings that I had going on. And so it's been an evolution. It was really hard in the beginning, 

[00:07:48] Liz: yeah. 

[00:07:49] Steph: To say those things out loud, it was really hard. And that was a big, huge growth moment, it's still a process, but you would not recognize me if we met when I was 21. I'm completely different. It's crazy. 

[00:08:04] Liz: That's so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. 

[00:08:07] Steph: Yeah. 

[00:08:07] Liz: I think a lot of people will empathize with that. I think a lot of people have that experience. Yeah, I've done some reading recently about experiences growing up. When if you feel like you don't have, a place to go to process your feelings. However, that might be that's. That's a very difficult thing to deal with in adulthood it's work. It's like a lot of work for 

[00:08:30] Steph: And it's a lot of putting yourself in an uncomfortable position. 

[00:08:32] Liz: Yeah.

[00:08:33] Steph: And luckily I was able to do that through therapy 

[00:08:36] Liz: Yep.

[00:08:36] Steph: And that was a safe place. To just say all the stuff that was on my mind and that was inside of me. But it's interesting. I think that introversion and extroversion are real things, but I also think that, there's a possibility that there's some kind of dysfunction in either of those and that when you bring that dysfunction to light. 

[00:08:56] Liz: Hm.

[00:08:56] Steph: It can kind of move you more towards the middle. 

[00:08:59] Liz: Yeah. That's oh, I love that so much. Okay. I need a second. I need a second to let that sink in. Yes, because if, I think about it from that perspective, you've come out of your shell a little bit, because you've been more comfortable expressing yourself for me. If I look at it from the same lens of going through this period of time, where I was, struggling a lot only my struggle was like, I felt like I was giving everything to everybody all the time.

And I hit this wall of Well, I'm not doing this anymore. I just shut down and entered therapy into my life. So through my experiences with therapy, it's been about focusing on going inward and being a little bit more in tune with what's actually happening with myself versus what's happening with everybody else around me.

And maybe that is why it feels a little bit like I don't necessarily know. I need to be out and in the world all the time in that extroverted way. And it feels more comfortable to have that introverted time. That's cool. That was an aha moment. 

[00:10:10] Steph: Yay. And now we're getting back into it. You and me 

[00:10:14] Liz: Yes. 

[00:10:14] Steph: After having a little break. 

[00:10:15] Liz: It has felt good to get back into the swing of things. I've sort of missed the consistency of that every other week, getting something new out and hearing feedback from those of you who listen, it's kind of funny to like get into a groove and then be interrupted from it. And of course, everybody knows that wasn't the plan. But we were taking a break, regardless, I guess. This is an interesting thread of thought about taking breaks.

[00:10:39] Steph: Yeah, for sure. 

[00:10:40] Liz: When is it important to take a break? 

[00:10:42] Steph: Well, when you're sick, you cannot speak and your job is to podcast. I think that's probably a good clue. 

[00:10:49] Liz: Oh, you guys. I tried everything I could to make my voice sound normal. I tried so hard. hysterical. I didn't talk to humans. That was hard. 

[00:11:00] Steph: You talk to your cats? 

[00:11:02] Liz: No, I didn't. 

[00:11:04] Steph: They're probably like finally. 

[00:11:05] Liz: Finally some peace and quiet in this house!

 Cats are the funniest creatures in the world. Okay. So we have this Nest cam and the Nest cam is, it's not a security camera people. It's a, cat cam. It's like set up to see where their food bowls are when we're out of town and stuff. I guess, theoretically, if someone broke in we'd, see them walk through the front door, but, that's about all, it would, it would be too late by them.

We have this dynamic with our cats when we're home, they're both just like sweet little babies who liked to snuggle all the time. And one of them is a little more whiny than the other one, but pretty much the same as soon as we're out of the house. One of them turns into a total alpha and he's really he, I don't understand how this works when we feed them.

When we're home, they both sit and meow for their food at the same time. And I put the food down and they both eat their food. When we're out of town, they have their own dishes? That timer goes off, the food comes out. Theoretically, both of them should run to each of their dishes and they should eat their food at the same time.

And yet this one, like, wait, He sits there and watches his brother eat because he has to, I don't know. It's some like weird, jungle kingdom, like intuitive rule. He sits and waits and then he ends up not eating as much. And by the time we get home, he's like this, this poor little like starved It's the craziest thing I've ever seen.

[00:12:37] Steph: Yeah. Maybe there is something about alpha, cat. What's, what's the word I'm thinking of? I'm going to say tribe that has not right. Pack, that instinctual culture where you guys are the alphas, 

[00:12:49] Liz: yes. 

[00:12:49] Steph: and when you're not there, it's no holds barred. It's like cats gone wild. 

[00:12:55] Liz: It's got fascinates me how is this a behavior that you even know how to do? We've been the alphas since they were like two and a half weeks old. They don't know any better, but 

[00:13:07] Steph: Yeah, it must be something instinctual. 

[00:13:09] Liz: Yeah. Instinct is crazy to me. It's just crazy. It always makes me think How does this show up in human life that? We don't even realize we have it. We have the same thing in there somewhere.

[00:13:21] Steph: Interesting train of thought. 

[00:13:22] Liz: Yes. 

[00:13:23] Steph: Good thing. Our instincts are still good for podcasting though. we're back back 

[00:13:29] Liz: look at you.

[00:13:31] Steph: Segue Queen. 

[00:13:33] Liz: That was, particularly excellent.

[00:13:36] Steph: Well, we are just thrilled to be back and we get to start off after our hiatus with a friend of ours, Sandy Choi, who is, I would call her a Musical Activist. What do you think about that?

[00:13:49] Liz: I like that. I think that's good. 

[00:13:51] Steph: Everything she's involved in is something innovative. And on the frontier of changing the way that we do things in music. 

[00:13:59] Liz: Yeah, we spent a lot of time discussing her experience with her relatively new role with the DC Youth Orchestra Programs, here in, in the Washington, DC area. We spent a lot of time on that for a reason. It's, a really fantastic organization. And In my opinion, as a, model for what a youth orchestra program could do in communities anywhere, yeah, it was really interesting. It was really lovely to talk with her in a little more detail. I mean, we've talked about this. I feel like we only scratched the surface of what we could have discussed with her. She's done so much.

[00:14:32] Steph: Yeah. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with our friend Sandy. 

Sandy Convo

[00:14:38] Steph: Our guest today is arts advocate and performer, Sandy Choi. Sandy works with the DC youth orchestra program. She's their Community Engagement and Digital Media Manager. And she's also known for her involvement in the chamber music scene here in DC.

She works with trailblazing groups, such as the Inscape Chamber Orchestra, Urban Arias, and the Balance Campaign and Liz, and I know Sandy as a fellow freelancer, and we're always amazed at the projects that she has going on all the time. So we are just so thrilled to welcome our friend, Sandy Choi.

[00:17:13] Sandy: It's such a treat to be with you on this. I've been admiring, your handiwork with this podcast for a while. And as a non violist, I feel especially honored to be a guest. Thank you for having me. 

[00:17:24] Steph: Thank you so much for being here. I mean, we feel like what we talk about here, it applies to all musicians are all freelance musicians, especially. 

[00:17:32] Liz: DCYO, your involvement is very new. 

[00:17:35] Sandy: Yes. so I started working with DCYOP in this new manager position back in the spring, but my involvement with DC actually goes back a few years. I worked as a chamber music coach and their intensive summer program, which usually takes place on the GW campus.

And it's really for more advanced students to get some experience, learning, to play chamber music with some of their peers from the youth orchestra and it was such an amazing experience. I was really blown away by, not just the level of talent of the students, but just the comradery and, the staff and the way they interacted with each other, especially it was just such like a warm, friendly familial environment. It really left an impact on me. And so for a number pandemic and non pandemic related reasons, I was looking for, a more nine to five ish job earlier this year.

This position happened to catch my eye. And I thought, well, this sounds kind of cool. So I thought, well, I'll talk to my friends there and apply and see what happens. And, the stars aligned, it all kind of worked out. So, the role they hired me for has two parts to it.

One is the community engagement piece, which is, as I see it really growing and building our relationships with not just our families, but our community partners other organizations in the DC area. so there's that aspect of it. And then there's a digital media aspect, which is all the social media accounts and the website. Just kind of trying to get a sense of what the landscape looks like out there. And if there are things we should be engaging with more to grow our outreach and our audience. It's been a lot of fun. I mean, first of all, you can't think of an organization that's an easier sell than DCYOP. They are an institution that had been part of the DC landscape for over 60 years now. and they're an organization that they really, they walk the walk. I mean, everyone loves to talk about the importance of diversity and equity inclusion, and, for the most part, we all have really great intentions around these very big principles,

but this is something that has just, been part of the DNA of DCYOP from day one. So when you get to see the groups, the classes in action, and you see how the organization operates. something really special. So having seen that, I'm more than happy to go out and talk to people about what a great organization it is to reach out to our alums and to our families, and just try and strengthen those relationships so that we can help the organization continue to thrive and grow and, provide some really incredible services for the kids in the DC area.

[00:20:04] Steph: Those are like my fondest memories are playing with other people in school and in youth orchestra, having those experiences of playing with other kids, that's like the hook. It's not practicing at home, all the things that you're supposed to be practicing. No, it's making music with others and, what an important part of education. How do you make it accessible to the most kids in DC that you can? 

[00:20:29] Sandy: Well, first and foremost, ability to pay tuition is never a barrier for students. Whatever a child's circumstances are, financial and otherwise we find a way to make it work. So whether that's tuition assistance or an instrument loan, we also have, something called their talent development program, which provides the scholarship opportunity for, mostly advanced students to, study with a private teacher, have access to masterclasses and performance opportunities.

There are several different layers of support that we offer. Mentorship is also a big part of that program. We work very hard to meet every student, wherever they are in their circumstances and in their musical journey, and find ways to make it work. So that's the number one thing.

Two, we also try and locate our programs in places that are accessible to our kids. Right now, we're located at a DCPS school we are housed there on Saturdays. We also have a number of afterschool programs that we run in elementary schools in the DCPS system, across the city. We try and really get out there into the community where kids are really hungry for these sorts of programs. and then also make ourselves accessible on Saturdays to kids who want to come and join our ensembles.

[00:21:37] Liz: Well, and the scope is huge, right? It's wonderful to know that we have actually a lot of listeners that aren't in the DC area. And the people who may be listening to us who work in youth orchestra programs in their own areas, in their own cities might be interested in making things as accessible as possible. I think that's something that DCYOP does better than any other organization in this area. Having taught here for a while and watching kids go through other youth orchestra programs, I'm not knocking them, but they're run in a way that, it's elite, right?

Elite is the word I think I would use for most of the competitive programs and DC has a competitive component, but I think that there's so much more going on. Can you talk us through, like what a typical Saturday looks like for DCYOP ?

[00:22:21] Sandy: Oh, Boy, 

[00:22:23] Liz: Exactly.

[00:22:23] Sandy: It's busy. I'll say that very, very busy. So a typical Saturday starts at 9:00 AM, with our most advanced orchestras coming to rehearse. And they're pretty much with us all morning in rehearsals or sectionals. I'm going to get this wrong. I want to say it's nine ensembles we have.

[00:22:38] Liz: Yeah. That's amazing. 

[00:22:40] Sandy: So basically we have a range of on some of those starts from our very beginners through advanced, mostly high school students, full symphonic orchestras. and then, oh, that's my dog.

[00:22:52] Liz: That's okay. we won't edit out dog noises.

[00:22:57] Sandy: So we have this full range of ensembles basically all day on Saturdays. They're kind of overlapping throughout the day. And then we also have two programs for our total new students. There's Discover Music, which is for kids who are exploring music, and the end goal of that program is for them to choose an instrument and then move into our beginner classes. I love that idea because that's something they can do with parents or grandparents, any other family members learn some basics about music. Here's some new music here are different instruments,

get an idea of what the options are. And then, the graduation ceremonies from the pick an instrument, they move into our beginner program. And then they have small group classes on Saturdays, with a parent or a guardian. And they get to learn the basics. The way it's designed right now is a year long course.

So. it's a fairly big commitment. They work towards a performance at the end of the school year. And then from there they can continue in the beginner class, or they may be able to move into our beginning ensembles, which gives them the chance to start playing with some other kids in a string ensemble or wind ensemble, and then grow through there.

And it's really incredible to see how many students we have who have progressed through so many ensembles all the way up to the top orchestra. I'm pretty brand new around here, but I think for a lot of our team to just sort of see these kids growing up. There's something really amazing.

And most of them aren't going to go on to become concert artists or to even really study music in any serious way, but it's such a fundamental part of their development as young people. And this is something that we've really been thinking long and hard about. Especially these last few months since I've, been there, about what exactly we are trying to provide students with.

I mean, you mentioned how a lot of youth is on, uh, I know it's not just here in DC, but in general, the idea is that these are very elite organization training organizations and, these kids are going to be playing, Strauss, tone, poems, and Beethoven symphonies, and they're going to go on to Julliard and all of these things, and they're supposed to be best of the best. We've really been working to define or redefine what excellence means for our kids. 

[00:25:04] Liz: I love this so much. 

[00:25:07] Sandy: It's so great because, you know, we talk about meeting kids where they are, and we talk a lot about development of these kids as like whole human beings, right? We're not just training them to be musical machines.

we want them to work hard at the technical skills and, learning about the music they're playing and, musicality and all these really important skills. But we also want them to develop skills that are going to help them in all other areas of life. all know the value right. Of a musical education and what has done for us as human beings.

But we really wanted to put that at the forefront of what we do as an organization. And teach these kids that, Hey, you know, this is a really great opportunity to learn how to work with others. how to be a team player, how to be patient, how to,

[00:25:50] Liz: Yep.

[00:25:50] Sandy: when you know, when to be like a soloist and when to be like an accompanist, what to do when you, hit a really difficult challenge and how you break that down and approach it.

And, how you ask for help and all of these things that can help our kids and every aspect of life. One of the things I love is when I see our alums out there, thriving in fields that have nothing to do with classical music, but a lot of them come back and they talk about how important this experience was for them, in teaching them valuable life skills, but also the relationships that they create and that they sustain. So I love that that's something we've taken as a priority and it is something that we stand by as a defining feature of our youth orchestra. And it doesn't mean that, our kids aren't awesome musicians because they are they're fantastic musicians. But I think we also feel that by focusing on all these other areas of what it means to be like a good human being that that strengthens their ability to also be excellent musicians.

[00:26:46] Steph: I love that so much. It almost seems that your organization is just like filling a void in the community where instead of it being like an exclusive experiences, an inclusive experience where everyone can learn these tools. I wonder if the. way that they do things in Europe? They have much more of the musical culture there because music is a part of their education, much more than it is here. And I just love that. You're just kind of filling in the gaps for these kids where, like you said, they're not all going to be performers ultimately, but there's so much to be gained from this education. And you're giving it to these kids who really need it. 

[00:27:27] Sandy: Yeah, absolutely. A big part of it as well as not just presenting them with, you know, this is what an orchestra is, and this is what kind of repertoire you're playing the orchestra, but also listening to the kids in terms of what their interests are, and making sure that the repertoire we're presenting to them is more reflective of our students and where they're coming from. In one of the really great projects we have going right now, is in conjunction with NOI over at University of Maryland. And it's the K through 12 New Music Project. And this grew out of the work of a student at university of Maryland. She had a fellowship with the Sphinx foundation. The goal basically was to commission works by more diverse living composers. And so we have a number of new works that we're going to premiere the season. one is actually a local composer, Adrian Sims, who's from Maryland, and a number of other works that will be sprinkled throughout the season. We've got another commission by Kerwin Young who most people would know as a member of Public Enemy and a Grammy winning producer!

[00:28:31] Liz: That's 

[00:28:31] Sandy: He's a legend. He's writing new work for one of our advanced youth orchestra groups that will premiere in the spring. It's a difficult problem, right? This idea of representation classical music and the orchestral repertoire. And I appreciate so much that we're doing this at the level of students, because I think it's something that big orchestra is talk about a lot and they're working on it. but people forget how important it is to give kids access to music by composers who like them come from the same places as them have the same experience as them, and how that builds throughout their entire lives, in terms of, how they see themselves represented, what they're listening to, like how they engage, with classical music. So I'm excited that we're doing this, and I'm hoping that this will also help a lot of organizations see what the process is really like.

Sometimes I hear advocates for greater inclusion and diversity in classical music, kind of toss out this idea of, you know, well, if you want to program more black composers or more Latin X composers, and more Asian composers, just Google it. Which I a hundred percent get the sentiment behind that.

But I also feel like we're either at or it's gone past the point now of just Googling.

[00:29:48] Liz: Yes. Yeah. 

[00:29:49] Sandy: It gets you so far, but there are a lot of real obstacles, right? We've run into this problem with Balance Campaign, my, new music chamber group. We're constantly looking to program more diverse composers and just go beyond what, the standard cannon is.

But sometimes it's really hard to find a composer because their website's no longer active or they don't have, perusal scores or clips of their pieces. And so you have to really be willing and able to invest a lot of time in the process it's worth it. It is totally a hundred percent worth it, but it does take a lot of time with, and person power to do so. I think the more that we can demonstrate what that process looks like and how to go about doing it in a successful way, the better it's going to be for all these organizations who are, really believe, want to make progress in this area. It's just really challenging. 

[00:30:40] Liz: Yeah. I've shared before that I played a string quartet that we run a chamber music program as well. We coach advanced string quartets every week. And traditionally the first concert of the year is always classical composers. And pre pandemic, it was not surprisingly, always a Mozart and Haydn. It was full programs of Mozart and Haydn, that's what we always did.

And we really are, invested in more diverse programming and what we're aiming to do is filter these composers into the cannon without making a big, like, Hey, we are featuring this, for example, we put Joseph Bologne on our program this year. I have these four young boys playing this quartet and I'm talking to them about the quartet I'm actually not really going into detail about the history of the composer. I'm just talking about the piece and I'm talking about what I hear and what I notice and how, maybe that might inform the character in which they're playing.

And one of these boys raised his hand. And he said, well, he was of African descent, right? That being said, we programmed Bologne and we go on IMS LP, which is where we get everything else. And there are some additions of his first collection of quartets, but he has this other collection of quartets that we will be purchasing. It is not as straightforward as just going on IMS LP and downloading the Mendelssohn collection.

You do have to do more work to find those pieces. So I'm glad you're sharing that. I think it's a commitment of time. That's totally, totally worth it. To engage the kids that are learning music today. This is what they care about. 

[00:32:10] Sandy: Absolutely. Well, so you raised a point that I'm curious your thoughts about this in terms of just presenting this as music and not making a big deal about, Hey, we're programming a African-American composer or programming women composers. I know this may not be popular sentiment with some people, but I get kind of aggravated when I see, and this happens, I feel like having a lot with female composers were they get relegated to these programs of like, here's our all female composer concert for the season.

Here's your, fix of like Fanny Mendelssohn, Florence Price for the year. And I know this happens with Black composers and Asian composers and Latin X composers as well. But it really bugs me. I remember I got into discussion about this with her friend and they were like, well, you know, I think it's really important that we, make the point of highlighting, these composers so that people pay attention and come to these concerts. Honestly, if I look at the season schedule for an orchestra, I'm not necessarily going to be drawn in by like a program of all female composers. I'm going to be drawn in by like, this mix of program. Themes or the thing we're all supposed to do now with, every concert program. I'm more drawn in by that. And this is sort of what feels like a somewhat arbitrary collection of composers, just because they all happen to have, you know,

[00:33:26] Steph: It's almost like saying we wouldn't have included this composer on a different program, but we're making a special program so that we can include this composer or this whatever category it is that we're talking 

[00:33:39] Liz: Yes. 

[00:33:40] Steph: Like they wouldn't have naturally been included. 

[00:33:42] Liz: Like the peace can't hold up to like a program of the normal repertoire that we would play.

[00:33:48] Sandy: Yeah. I've been doing sort of this interesting experiment of sorts with the good friend of mine, Liz Hill, who's an incredible pianist.

[00:33:54] Liz: We know, Liz! 

[00:33:56] Sandy: And a thousand times busier than me, I don't know how she does it all. We decided we want to do a recital together and we decided that between the two of us, we wanted to try and find more female composers should play. If there were female composers of color, that would be amazing too, but we made the very conscious decision to not bill the program in that way. It was a recital program and when we talked about it, it was a collection of composers that we thought were really interesting because they were all writing the works we performed at seminole, cataclysmic periods of, history times of great change. We played a Sonata by Poldovski who was riding in this inner war period and Florence Price who was writing her pieces in Chicago at the time of great migration and explosive growth, in terms of not just economics, but also the arts and culture scene in Chicago. We played a couple pieces by Jesse, Montgomery, who wrote one of the pieces we played in the middle of the pandemic. We wanted to focus on like this historical events in these composers and what they were creating at the time, the fact that they all happen to be women, we could have talked about that as well, but, we really wanted to focus on them as artists and creators and the moment at which they were creating, which is generally how we talk about composers when they're dead white men.

[00:35:07] Liz: Yes. Yes. We're not like we're going to feature all these pieces by white men who lived in the 18 hundreds. Like, could you imagine? 

[00:35:17] Steph: Well, hopefully we're just at a point on this trajectory. 

[00:35:20] Liz: I think so. 

[00:35:21] Steph: When you go to a doctor these days, maybe 10, 15 years ago, you'd be like, oh, I'm going to a woman doctor.

[00:35:27] Liz: Dr. HIRA. 

[00:35:28] Sandy: Lady doctor 

[00:35:29] Steph: What I mean? 

[00:35:30] Liz: A hundred percent what people would say! 

[00:35:32] Steph: Yeah. 

[00:35:32] Liz: So right. It just makes me laugh to think about. 

[00:35:34] Steph: It's what my dad would say. She's a lady doctor or something like that.

[00:35:38] Liz: I was literally hearing my dad say, oh yeah, I had a woman doctor today. 

[00:35:43] Steph: These days, you don't say that as much. I just say I went to my doctor. So hopefully we're on this trajectory where people just become known as composers.

[00:35:51] Liz: That is what I love about. Exactly what we're talking about, you create a program of music and that program might include some incredible Mozart quartet, but it could also include a person of color who was a composer or a woman who was a composer. And it's just normal then. completely normalizing it. Not to mention I just love this project you have going with the youth orchestras, commissioning new pieces by people now, because yeah, this takes me right back to the last conversation we have with, Steph's friend, Brian, about how people have things to say, now we're going through an immense amount of growth and change and turmoil and life is difficult and yeah. No offense to all of the history of our music. We all love it, but there's just so many things to say now. And that's, what's relevant to our youth. 

[00:36:45] Sandy: Yeah, 

[00:36:46] Liz: I had another quartet of girls I've been working with for a long, long time. And they are like, not jazzed about playing Mozart. They want to be playing something by a woman. They want to be playing something by a person of color. want relevance. not that we can't make Mozart relevant. I, I promise you everybody. We are coaching them for a love of an appreciation of Mozart, but there's yeah, they're thirsty for something different. 

[00:37:11] Sandy: They are certainly so much more aware that there is a whole world outside of traditional classical Canon, I think. So, they're always excited to be presented with new music and components they've never heard of and just kind of expand their horizons. 

[00:37:25] Liz: Yeah. It's so interesting to see them becoming more informed in that way then like, to be fair, some of our colleagues, it's really fascinating to me. 

[00:37:34] Steph: Well, I'm just going to be real here and I would say probably like 10, 15 years ago, playing in an orchestra, you see new music on the program and you're like, giant eye-roll, oh my God, what is this that we're going to have to play this week? 

[00:37:48] Liz: Yeah.

[00:37:49] Steph: And I don't know what that speaks to that speaks to the lack of exposure to new music when you're being educated or the quality of the music.

I don't 

[00:38:01] Sandy: I mean, I think it's some of both. 

[00:38:03] Steph: Yeah, 

[00:38:03] Sandy: Yeah. You know, I, I think 

[00:38:06] Liz: Not every new piece written is going to be a masterpiece,

[00:38:08] Sandy: We'll know. Right. That's the thing. 

[00:38:11] Steph: How much crap was written, you know, in like Mozart's time. That was probably a lot. They just didn't get disseminated as much because people had to write that stuff out by, 

[00:38:21] Sandy: Right. 

[00:38:21] Liz: right?

[00:38:22] Steph: Hand, they , to copy it. There was no interwebs. 

[00:38:26] Sandy: I think there are probably examples of, groups that have programmed music cause they thought, oh, here's a Black composer. Here's a female composer. We should, put them on our program without really like taking the time to look at the music as music. 

[00:38:40] Liz: Totally. 

[00:38:41] Sandy: You know, which is really unfortunate because that's just a disservice to everyone. I feel like groups in general are being more thoughtful about selecting the repertoire. I gotta be honest, the number of times I see Fanny Mendelssohn or Florence Price programmed, and not to say that either of them are like not great composers. They wrote a bunch of other stuff too, besides the same, like two or three pieces that everyone wants to program because they're known quantities. Or there are all these other composers you can program to, again, it's just a matter of putting in the work, but I do feel like people are starting to do more of that...

[00:39:13] Steph: Yeah, 

[00:39:13] Sandy: which is better for everyone. 

[00:39:14] Liz: I have a question for you, Sandy, actually, and I'm going to just ask this out of sheer, naivete. I feel like in terms of representative programming, I actually think one of the more challenging access points. I feel like I have from the outside coming in is with Asian composing.

I hear a lot about Florence Price and William Grant Still and Joseph Bologne and feel like I've got a pretty decent grasp on the female scene too, but sometimes I feel like that voice does get lost a little bit in this whole conversation. Do you have feelings about that or thoughts? 

[00:39:49] Sandy: Oh man. No, no, not at all. So many thoughts and feelings of, oh man, what a year? I feel like for the AAPI community in this country, just in, general, it's hard to even know where to begin. Just in the classical space, I feel like we've heard a lot of important voices talking about lack of representation terms of composers, for sure. But also in our organizations, and this is both in orchestras and also actually in like the administrative side of things as well. And looking at why there was a piece in the New York times that was talking about Asian-Americans and executive leadership and how you see a lot of young Asian Americans that kind of start entry level and they work their way up to about mid-level and then they just kind of disappear and why that's the case. And we see that in arts administration as well. I'm glad to see people talking about this because. We have not talked about it very publicly for as long as I can remember. It also gets at sort of the complicated space that the API community, I mean, the AAPI community for starters is very problematic too.

I'll say this as someone of Korean American descent and just sort of speak for like the east Asian community, perhaps which is also extremely large, but just that in the complicated space we occupy in this country, in the art scene, it's, a lot, it's a lot to parse through and I think we still have a lot of work to do around that.

I am really glad to see people talking about it and, um, Jennifer Koh wrote a really great piece in the New York Times kind of about her experience, as a classical musician. And there was another profile later, think it was, uh, violinist or violist in San Francisco?

[00:41:40] Steph: Yeah. David Kim.Yeah. 

[00:41:42] Sandy: Also writing about the experience. So I feel like there's still a lot of processing to come and a lot of open conversation. I mean, I remember listening into panel discussion, the big conference this summer about the seeming lack of Asian-Americans in leadership positions, in the arts administration community, and why that's the case?

And someone asked the question of, do we need more entry-level programs to encourage Asian-Americans to apply. And the response that one of the panelists gave was essentially that the issue is not entry-level opportunities. It's taking these candidates and helping them rise through the ranks to executive positions. There's clearly not a lack of talent, but there's something wrong in the system and how we're encouraging or failing to encourage these particular candidates to continue to grow into leadership positions. So I was like, glad to hear that, thrown out there. there are clearly many, many talented people who would like to excel in this particular area. But the idea that we do need to kind of look. The systemic issues and the structural issues what we can do better, I think is some progress. 

Going back to composers, in particular, this is something I've really struggled with because I feel like I've, done really well in a lot of areas in terms of educating myself about, all the amazing composers who are out there living composers. But I've had a really hard time finding specifically east Asian composers. 

Think some of it is just because it's not that I haven't found them, but they don't necessarily write for my instrument or they don't write for my ensembles very particular instrumentation. And I need to put more thought into why that is. I'm curious. And I haven't really talked to. Many composers about this, because I can certainly see how it's a lot easier and more accessible, to write for say piano, 

[00:43:28] Liz: Right. 

[00:43:29] Sandy: And to get your work performed as opposed to writing for, I don't know, a hopeless percussion ensemble. 

[00:43:37] Steph: But what you think that, like, there are so many fabulous symphony orchestras in Eastern Asia. Are they not commissioning works from modern composers? 

[00:43:46] Sandy: That's a good question. I'm sure they are. But this is just my own personal opinion. I think there's kind of two issues at play. One is, again, it's just my personal opinion here, how orchestras in east Asia want to be seen by the rest of the world? 

[00:44:01] Steph: Oh, interesting. 

[00:44:03] Sandy: In terms of who they're programming, I think we have a real issue here of how we see Asian composers and. and what they're capable of writing and who they're representing when they write. 

[00:44:15] Steph: Wow. 

[00:44:15] Sandy: I'm just going to throw those little questions out there. 

[00:44:19] Steph: I didn't even occur to me, that's very poignant.

[00:44:21] Liz: It is. it's really a good point. I played a piece four quartet, just a movement of it and it's written by Chinese American composer. 

[00:44:29] Sandy: Oh 

[00:44:30] Liz: Yeah. I think she's in Midwest somewhere,

[00:44:33] Sandy: Yeah. 

[00:44:34] Liz: The movement we played was about like making noodles with their grandmother. It's really cool. But I did just think about this thing that like instinctively culturally as a white American, I think three years ago, my opinion about an Asian composer might write about would be something tied to their own culture from Asia and that it would have that sort of like thread within it. And if it didn't then, you know, it's so 

[00:44:59] Sandy: Right. What kind of Asian composer? 

[00:45:01] Liz: Yeah. 

[00:45:01] Steph: So interesting. 

[00:45:03] Liz: Kinds of like assumptions 

[00:45:04] Sandy: Yeah, 

[00:45:04] Liz: In 

[00:45:04] Sandy: Yeah, 

[00:45:05] Liz: my head, I'm literally thinking about 

[00:45:07] Sandy: Right. it's complicated. you know, and I think about Asian composers I'd heard of growing up, bright Chang or like Tan Dun, right. Composers where there is very much a heavy cultural influence.

One of my favorite composers right now is a guy named Viet Cuong who is Vietnamese American composer. He just writes awesome music. And I want to play all of his music, 

[00:45:25] Liz: cool.

[00:45:25] Steph: I'm writing this down.

[00:45:26] Sandy: I love it. 

[00:45:27] Steph: it's so interesting. How you don't realize this until the light is shown on it. Right? How Eurocentric all of our, our, idea of music is . Like why shouldn't Asian composers write culturally applicable music with instruments that are prevalent and used in their culture. We did that. 

[00:45:46] Liz: Yeah. 

[00:45:47] Steph: Europeans did that, you know, what is up? 

[00:45:50] Liz: Also on the flip side of that too stuff, if an agent. Composer has a piece of music for string quartet I don't have to think, like I'm playing Asian music. I playing music. Right? 

[00:46:00] Steph: Yes. 

[00:46:01] Sandy: Yeah, 

[00:46:02] Liz: In terms of the work that's involved in finding music, going back to your Google comments, Sandy, what can we do besides just the Googling?

[00:46:10] Sandy: I know this, may be a unpopular opinion 

[00:46:12] Steph: We're all about unpopular opinions here. 

[00:46:16] Sandy: But talking to each other is a really great way.

[00:46:18] Liz: No.

[00:46:20] Sandy: Yes. I know. No one likes to, pick up the phone these days. but yeah, talking to each other, and learning about what other people are interested in. That's kinda the number one thing for me.

I mean, I could spend like hours and hours and hours digging through the web, trying to find people, but you know, it's like anything, like word of mouth, right. You talked to your friend who might know someone who's writing something cool right now, or they have a colleague who's a composer, who happens to write for your instrument.

And, you just keep on going. I attended the Chamber Music, America Conference, God, it was so long ago now pre pandemic right before the pandemic started. And it was a wonderful opportunity to meet people that I would just, don't even know that if I had found them online, that I'd been like, oh, I'm going to go down this rabbit hole and learn more about this person, but you make that personal connection.

[00:47:06] Steph: The networking. 

[00:47:07] Sandy: I do think it's really important that, talk to people I should specify outside of our sort of normal boundaries or normal comfort zones then just forcing ourselves to just stretch a little bit. And to expand our horizons. So is a good thing. 

[00:47:20] Steph: Yeah, 

[00:47:21] Liz: I wanted to just circle back to DC YOP here just because I think the way it's structured is so smart. And, we've been having these conversations here and there on the podcast About how the change occurs. And we're a podcast for our fellow freelancer who have been carving out their careers for a while and are, maybe are in roles of influence with students, whether that's your private studio or you work in a youth program or you teach or whatever, it might be in a school. DC YOP has an advanced orchestra, and you can have your excellence of technique and mastery of the music.

You can have those goals in mind, but this idea that excellence of the human being is, more whole than that. And about accessibility, the fact that you have those entry-level programs, I think makes a huge difference because that's where the breakdown occurs. And I was just thinking about it too, from a larger standpoint, all these things we're talking about in terms of progress, How much of that starts from the people who are learning music now and understanding it in a new way that we didn't. And then the little increments of progress we make in our own worlds. 

[00:48:27] Sandy: I think, to ensure the survival of classical music, I mean, anything we can do to make music making in general, just kind of part of kids everyday normal existence is a huge win, because it used to be that playing the piano in your house or going to concerts or listening to concerts on the radio where things that were kind of part of family existence, or kids' education, and it's much, much less. So now, so any way we can help incorporate that into the childhood experience, I think is really great. I also kind of see this, all part of this larger trend of the increased accessibility of the classical music world.

And, I've been thinking about this a lot lately because of NFT's, I'll get back to that in a second, and also like the pandemic and just the ways we've had all the kind of pivot and, re-examine how we present music and interact with audiences, changing the medium of communication for sure, but also like the degree of accessibility, their degree to which we not just present our professional selves, on a stage, but we present ourselves more and more as people. We have our tech talks and we do our Q and A's and Facebook live with our fans. How that changes the way people perceive classical music and what it's all about and how they interact with it.

The NFT thing came up this week because I was doing a little bit of research and learning about the ways in which some artists are basically offering shares in music that they're producing, where and very, very basic layman terms. The way I'm understanding it is that you invest and own a piece of this music and are able to, let's say, remix and create a new product. Turning the idea that traditional recording contract on its head. And instead of relying on the investment of a big studio label to produce your music, it's kind of like a crowdfunding idea, but drawing from your, audience and having them invest. What I thought was really cool, it's not just investing in your ability to produce your music, but also then engaging in the creative process as well. Which is something I think that's real new for our industry, and could be really cool and could potentially really reinvigorate, what classical music's identity is in this world and what it could be. I'm trying to look at all of this positively, because I know there's, especially with pandemic, been a lot of worry about can classical music survive, and I think we all know it can't survive in the format it has endured in, right? But it does make me think, perhaps a little more positively about what it could become, and how it could become something that's more meaningful for a broader audience. 

[00:51:14] Steph: I agree. I've always felt like the term classical music is just kind of unsatisfactory as a descriptor of what we do, because it almost has this air of a, here we go again, but exclusivity. Right. And I feel like what we're doing right. now, post pandemic is making it more inclusive. It's not just traditional classical music. It's just music. 

[00:51:42] Liz: Yeah. 

[00:51:43] Steph: I guess it just depends on what we're, qualifying when we say classical music. Are we talking about instrumental music? Are we talking about instrumental and vocal music? I don't know. let's let's open it up for, for suggestions. 

[00:51:55] Sandy: Here's a question for you. So my son at every violin lesson, he has to do like a special listening, right? We, picked some piece of music listens to you, and he has to talk about name of the piece, performer, the composer, what period the composer is from. And I just hadn't thought about it so we used to have talk about modern composers or 20th century composers. And I was like, so what about all the composers you've been writing last 20, like what are we now?

[00:52:19] Liz: oh, wait.

[00:52:19] Steph: Yeah, what does modern mean anymore?

[00:52:21] Sandy: You know? Yeah, 

[00:52:22] Steph: Does it just mean anything from the romantic period on? Is that new modern? I don't know. 

[00:52:25] Liz: All right. Even better. Why do these periods of music before 2000 before 1900 

[00:52:31] Sandy: right. 

[00:52:31] Liz: Get their own like special names. And now we're just like everything written after 1900,

[00:52:37] Sandy: Right. Yeah, 

Yeah, 

[00:52:39] Liz: So true!

[00:52:39] Steph: Our music historians are going to @ us be like...

[00:52:42] Sandy: I know.

[00:52:43] Liz: Do if we have any music historians, will you at us? Will you tell us what supposed to be?

[00:52:48] Sandy: I would love to know! 

[00:52:49] Steph: Yeah. 

[00:52:50] Sandy: I played some Barber the other day, I was like, oh, well like this is, but 

[00:52:53] Liz: Also it was written like 70 years ago. That's a lot, that's like a long time ago, 

[00:52:59] Sandy: Yeah. 

[00:52:59] Liz: The turn, of the century was like, 120 years ago,

[00:53:03] Sandy: Right. 

[00:53:05] Liz: Yeah. Stephanie, that's a great point. We need to just kind of rebrand this idea because it does go back to Sandy, what you said about musicians allowing ourselves just to be human beings and not be this living art on a stage that someone is staring at from a distance. That's not actually who we are. It's worth exploring maybe that it might mean that that veil of perfection and that pursuit of ultimate perfection and performance kind of erodes a little bit, and it stops being the most important thing that we're doing as classical musicians. And instead we're just connecting. 

[00:53:42] Steph: If music is an expression, it's supposed to be an expression of yourself. I'm not perfect. I don't know anybody who is. There there's a lot in there. 

[00:53:52] Liz: Well. And who cares about the perfection? Who cares about it genuinely asking the question. I'm not throwing that away. Our audience doesn't know, 

[00:54:00] Steph: Well, and they don't care. 

[00:54:02] Liz: They just want to be moved. Right. They just, want 

[00:54:04] Steph: Oh my God. Yes. I just played the Nutcracker. at the Kennedy Center, I was lucky enough to get to play several of those. And they did the version where there's a Sleeping Beauty interlude, which is like a giant violin solo and Oleg Rylatko who's the Concertmaster of that orchestra played at every night, completely different each time, not perfect. And it was stunning. It was sparkling. It conveyed emotion. It was so, moving. It was 

[00:54:36] Sandy: Yeah. 

[00:54:37] Steph: and it was not perfect. And I'll tell you what, not one person in that opera house cared. 

[00:54:42] Liz: No. 

[00:54:42] Sandy: No. 

[00:54:44] Liz: It's so true.

[00:54:45] Steph: Yeah. 

[00:54:45] Sandy: I have to tell you some of my favorite orchestral recordings I've listened to when I was growing up or like the New York Phil Leonard Bernstein recordings, every recording, technically a hot mess, 

[00:54:56] Liz: Yes. 

[00:54:58] Sandy: But they're just like bursting with emotion it's 

[00:55:02] Liz: Yeah. 

[00:55:03] Steph: We're so careful nobody's taking risks. 

[00:55:06] Sandy: Yeah. 

[00:55:06] Liz: It's like, something happened after that era. All that they cared about was the expression. And everyone had their own version of that expression and blended together. it's gritty and real, and it's so good. love this idea that over the course of time here, we could kind of swing the pendulum back a little. 

[00:55:26] Sandy: Yeah. I just had a conversation with someone about this and just, the place of improvisation and classical music. That's something that was very much part of the tradition. And somehow just got snuffed out over the years and, and this, I think, like you said, this is quest for technical perfection. There's so much that's lost with that and that lack of freedom and flexibility and that ability to inject. Very personal sense of artistic expression to music and that's something I would certainly love to see more of, in the development or evolution of classical music.

[00:56:00] Steph: Just music. in general, 

[00:56:02] Sandy: Yes. 

[00:56:03] Steph: whatever we're calling it 

[00:56:04] Liz: Yeah, yeah, need a new name. 

[00:56:06] Sandy: That we do. 

[00:56:06] Liz: Let's rename classical music. What could we call it? If we had to be 

genre-ized, what would he be? 

[00:56:15] Steph: Instrumental, well, no, cause not always. There's vocalists, 

[00:56:19] Sandy: Yeah, 

[00:56:20] Liz: We'll have to think about this. Anybody want to vote, send in your votes? If we renamed classical music, what would it be?

[00:56:28] Sandy: Rebranding, 

[00:56:29] Steph: Yes. Rebranded. 

[00:56:31] Liz: Rebrand it. Yeah, for our students too, I think having this in mind is really important because I know that, pre pandemic, my main goal was to like inspire the next generation of really serious musicians who maybe would go into it as a career. And I just do not, feel that way anymore. most of the kids that all of us engage with in music are not going to be professional musicians. 

[00:56:54] Sandy: Oh yeah. I also, say this to people all the time, I don't know someone comes to the concert and he's like, oh, I'm not a musician. I was like, no, no, no, no. You're just as important as the musicians on the stage. Because if we don't have people who love music who want to come to these concerts and enjoy it, well, what are we doing? I think being able to develop the next generation of music lovers,

 Whatever that music is, honestly getting people to just get out there and go to concerts and share music and engaged with it, it's better for the whole world. I think that's every. As important as, nurturing those, kids who want to go on and have careers.

Honestly, I think for a lot of those particular kids, they're on that path. They're gonna follow that path. but I think especially with, classical music, because there is sort of that air of exclusivity around it and these barriers, whatever we can do to encourage people to engage with it on whatever level they want to the better off we're all going to be.

[00:57:48] Liz: Here here. That's amazing. This has been so great, sandy. Thank you so much for talking with us. 

[00:57:57] Sandy: My pleasure. This is fun. 

[00:57:59] Steph: Let's do it again.